Good Practice Forum: Building Trust Environment for e-Commerce Challenges and Innovation Internet Society of China

29 September 2011 - A Workshop on Internet Governance for Development in Nairobi, Kenya

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Full Session Transcript

September 29, 2011 - 16:30pm


The following is the output of the real-time captioning taken during the Sixth Meeting of the IGF, in Nairobi, Kenya. Although it is largely accurate, in some cases it may be incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. It is posted as an aid to understanding the proceedings at the session, but should not be treated as an authoritative record.


>> May I have your attention?  Shall we start the workshop?  Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.  My name is Gao Xinmin.  We are glad to have you attending our workshop today.  We're working for E‑commerce chair innovation.  Today, we are very honored to have distinguished panelists here.  We have panelists that come from private sector, from China.  It's leaders for E‑commerce company in China.  They will be talking about general environments for E‑commerce applications in China and also some [INAUDIBLE] confidence, and related problems we have to solve.  And also we are very honored to unite distinguish panelists from the United States.  Both Dr. Pepper from CISCO and Dr. Cushman from Microsoft.  They're very well known experts in IT sectors.  Dr. Pepper is responsible for the communication policy for CISCO companies and before that, he was server in FCC, United States.  And Mr. Cushman comes from the textbook computing.  And also we are very honored to unite my older friend Zhong.  He's very active role in IGF for process.  And yeah.  And he's also, ah, major founder for Tipco foundations.  We also have, ah, [INAUDIBLE] from the information sum it award is Mr. Peter Brooks join us.  Welcome you.  Welcome you.  So, so I think today's workshop where the purpose is ‑‑ actually, I can see there are purposes too.  First of all, we were letting you know what happened in China about the E‑commerce development and also what problems we are facing.  And secondly, we want to discuss openly focus on the trust problem in the E‑commerce fields.  I think it's major obstacle for user development of application E‑commerce.  So, ah, I would like invite first speaker, Mr. Jing Pan.  Maybe I will let the panelists introduce themselves.  Yeah.  After words I can opened floor for independents.  Maybe we will take from Jing Pan.

>> My name is Jing Pan.  We are the leading advertising platform company and we started three years ago and ‑‑ or four years ago.  Now we're having a very dominating position in the technology driven advertising platform sector in China.

>> Thank you.  I would like to introduce you.  Pan, the family name is Pan.  She used the western style Jing Pan.  I confuse you.  I'm just kidding.  Yeah.  Sorry.  I call Mr. Houston.  You say it's a family name because they both are from United States.  You missed it.  So okay.

>> Good afternoon, everyone.  My name is Chen Yu.  I am vice President and co‑founder of e‑Payment and E‑spay one of the leading survivors.  We work with e‑Commerce as well as internet websites in China and also we work with a lot of the traditional businesses in a more traditional sector.  We've been around year 2003.  So we're one of the most ‑‑ we're actually one of the leading service providers in the payment provider here in China.

>> I am director of the Dipler Foundation, which is a Swiss foundation.  Somebody called it gogo.  We are very initially established by two governments, but we're non‑governmental organization with a main mission to do research and training and awareness building in your fields of governance including internet governance and we have been training over the last 6 years, close 2,000 officials and specialists from 186 states.  We middle 7 states to have the global U.N. coverage and many of our formal students are now acting as formal negotiators in this form.  I have a particular attachment to enter society in kinda.  When I was younger, I used to play table tennis and then that initial teenage link to China was reinforced seven years ago when we started keeping with Internet Society and Mr. Gao.  I am particularly happy to participate in this session.

>> Now Dr. Pepper, please introduce yourself.

>> I am Robert Pepper and as Mr. GAO mentioned, I'm at CISCO where I am sponge for global technology policies.  I focus on working with governments to look at the regulatory policy Eco systems that attract the investment to build out broad band Internet, Internet services and focus on, ah, issues ranging from spectrum policy, broadband policy on the supply side, but then on the demand side, because even, of course, if you have the networks and nobody uses them, what's the point.  And therefore, you know, what's an important issue is the application.  And so e‑Commerce is a very important application, which actually draws huge demand.  Prior to beg at CISCO I was for quite a long time at the FCC running the strategic planning group there.

>> Thank you, Dr. Pepper.  Now, I will go to Mr. Andrew Cushman.

>> Andrew Cushman:  Thank you.  It is an honor to be here.  I've been to China for eight years since I've been involved in cybersecurity.  We're focused on cyber security policy and helping governments run cyber security policy.  Along the way I also used my background in product development as well as in vulnerability management to help building capability and to solve technical and non‑technical security problems.  In the past, I have method the Microsoft security response center.  That's the team that's responsible for patch Tuesday.  And I did that for two years and that was enough and made think a career in policy would be attractive.  It's a pleasure to be here today.  Thank you very much.

>> Thank you, Mr. Cushman.  We have Peter Bruck.

>> Thank you, Mr. Chairman.  I remember when we started the issue of content on the world information society, a process that was actually Madame Hoohoo was in favor of in.  When we ‑‑ one of the winners was from Beijing and it was a pleasure to be there and I think we met there as well.  But what it does is it's a global mechanism in each and every year of over 2,000 products and 150 captures which go through a waterfall process of national best practice selections into a grand jury, which was this year in China in Hong Kong and would you then have at end of the day 42 winners.  So five in each of the category.  I would be blood did show you the last winners in the category of e‑Commerce because they give us an example of what is actually the richness and diversity of e‑Commerce.  Because e‑Commerce and I salute awful the Chinese their successful friend.  E‑Commerce is more than what we know and what actually the world sum it award does is it prevents this kind of drag net of the richest and diversity of things and projects and products and I'm very privileged to do this and thank you very much Internet Society of China for putting this on.

>> Thank you.  Thank you very much.  Now, we are starting with this speaker.  I want to [INAUDIBLE] Pan Jing.

>> Thank you.  It's my honor to on the part floor.  What I will do is to provide you with a brief introduction of the e‑Commerce.  So, um, I took out some data from a wide range of industry researchers including morgue an Stanley, I‑research in China, and, ah, from China, e‑Commerce in China is booming, but it's still in the early stage.  In the past, three, four years, the annual growth rate was 70%.  During that time, the growth rate in the U.S. was 13%.  You can see the growth rate has been really, really good in China and would estimate a forward growth rate of about 50% in the next few years; however, the reason why there's still so much opportunities is that let's look at these few numbers.  First of all, the online retail that's the total percentage is only 2 percent, but in the U.S., it's about 4% and China retail in China role is growing about high teens percentage in the next few years.  And if we look at population, we currently have about 480 million Internet users in China.  That's about 1 to 5 times of the American population in China and the internet penetration, however, is only at 30% far from being saturated in developing countries for 70%.  And the shop penetration in China is only 28%, which means only 10% of the population in China are doing retail right now.  And now let's look at the practitioners of China e‑Commerce market.  The Alibaba group which is the first pioneer (no sound) Chinese people wouldn't be afraid in the drop market.  And also, as of today, Alibaba group ‑‑ I will give you a few numbers.  C to C, 85%.  BUC 60 offer of e‑Commerce about 50%.  And now, somehow it evolved into an open platform and in order to be a stronger unable of e‑Commerce and also very strong business.  It's two logistics and financing and even a business school teaching people how to succeed in e‑Commerce.  Now, C to C is about ability% of all our retail market in China in this year.  I got almost 85% and the gross rate is decreasing.  Why?  Because B to B is growing really fast.  The growth rate has been about 150%.  Although, Alibaba owns 50% of the share, but there are a lost B to C new in the industry.  There were enormous capital in flow into this sector and, um, one thing I learned from this conference is that emerge markets is very hard for businesses to access capital, but it's not true in China.  So capital somehow driven the B to C sector in China.  Also, one thing I'd like to mention interestingly is the group buying thing.  We all know that group 1 became successful and came online and was a really big success story.  Actually, group buying in China started much earlier back in early 2000.  There are already people doing home buying for home deck rating products and also cars; however, driven by group on success, in the past few years ‑‑ past 2 years, there are a big booming in the group buying sector and as of today, there are 6,000 players in the market.  Probably as of yesterday.  If we look at data today, a few hundred are dropping out of the market.  The industry has been dropping so fast and it definitely created a lot of interesting government questions.  Now I'd like to introduce a little bit of the Eco system.  Okay.  I think my data is not showing up.  It is beneficiary of e‑Commerce boom in China; however, it has been growing really fast.  However, in the next few years, they estimate for logistic company growth is only about 25% as compared to e‑Commerce froze in overall 15%.  The main hindering factor is, ah, financial and the scalability.  The industry has been growing really fast and it created problems that are not so easily beg desolved.  I put out the comparison between China and America for two hours flight, two cities.  That's two hours flight in both China and America and then provides you the sense of the price of delivering two kilo possible.  In America you're probably more familiar with that.  It is about 20 to $30.  As a slow like 3 to 5 days delivery.  However in China, the price is all we think and it can go as long as $2.3.  In this in China, it is within delivery for second day and only for $2.3.  That means it is very hard for international companies to compete in this market and it usually it is international companies that has better technology.  Feddic is still in the market and providing service and the pictures provided to you are the typical Chinese service providers.  Probably it's ‑‑ how different it is from the Fed Ex delivery talks and the [INAUDIBLE].  I wanted to provide you with a [INAUDIBLE], but it doesn't work.  This is the warehouse of one of the leading luxury states in China.  This is how people distribute the products.  This is how $2 delivery can change us.  We call them ‑‑


>> Jing Pan:  The quality of services will be questionable.  (no sound) and the investment height.  E‑Commerce was the most actively invested area in China in the much capital for the sector because all my friends would return from the U.S. after our studies.  We have about 20 people that visit from Harvard business school three years ago and all Chinese people return to the country and the two of us are working in the conference sector and all the other 18 went to VC and the PE sector.  And the first quarter of 20011.  In 2010, there are about 34 deals in e‑Commerce.  But in the first quarter of this year, they have seven deals; however, the total deal value was about three times of the whole year of 2010.  Investors were really trying to catch the best ones.  They each sub‑category where the e‑Commerce and they're not afraid to poor in the amount of money to the early stage companies as in how to invest in the late stage for the active fields.  What does the money bring to the industry.  Usually, half of it goes to marketing.  And what happened was that in this year, even cost in China for an immediate company like us, that means a lot of challenges.  (no sound) in that way, they can kick other people out.  And this is a very difficult phenomena in China.  And also, people spend money in marketing in order to acquire customers.  Usually to acquire a customer through advertising usually renders about 17 to $34 in China; however, there's another way to acquire customers, which is you just provide coupons.  You just give a percentage discount and even that means it would eat all your profit.  If you gave a discount to acquire customer, the price would be much lower.  It would be 8 to 17%.  So, this one would look better on the books, on the balance sheets when you present numbers to the investors.  Of course, the second options.  However, which drive require right customers for you.  People who are buying in order to get discount would they be the loyal customers and stay with you?  That's question to ask.

To sum up, currently the Chinese e‑Commerce market is a very promising land; however, it's a [INAUDIBLE] battle fields.  My friends is e‑Commerce sectors.  I have a lot of friends in the community in China and a lot of them got hired by the e‑Commerce companies with really good salary and so on.  So, a lot of them enter that sector.  They always tell me this is the area you don't want to compete in.  So luckily we are the more technology [INAUDIBLE] and the media platform and the business will be different for us.  There are definite things met for governments and we also make sure that management would abide by their judiciary responsibilities and the reason I mentioned this is that e‑Commerce industry in China and also retail industry in China doesn't have that slow a history.  (no sound) because they're really competing head to head with all the others to try to grab the talents and grab the resources.  And that's the thing he's going to do and he's absolutely a trust worthy person and a smart guy.  You know?  Investors really need to think about, um, how to help the management, how to guide for executives.  And also, I would mention that we probably ‑‑ we do need quite a rating system and I'll show you more examples later to demonstrate this.  My thought is that you need the systems to be independent and you also need a reason for companies to be well governed and, um, be open.  I will quickly ‑‑ (no sound) we supply our industries and also we provide our system to the advertisers, which we have is the core value of our company is the data ‑‑ (no sound) I'd like to go back to my point that e‑Commerce would need the ratings system.  What happened with us, ah, about four years ago when we started the company was that it's not independent.  It's not provided by third parties.  It is usually provide by publishers and week it's not fair.  So we really tried to put third‑party track concept in China.  We worked with ‑‑ we might as well do the way to be approached in government entities and be approached the start up companies.  We're trying to start the track business.  We're too much leading providers and Nelson may have [INAUDIBLE], et cetera.  What we found most efficient was to work with the businesses who have the same mentality in China.  So we all happen to do that in four years, we were age to work with a lot of third party trackers and have our customers provide customers with the right option.  And the business, ah, working with business would probably be the most efficient in that way.  So, what do we provide to the e‑Commerce sector?  We help customers to understand where online shoppers are active and what's the most efficient channel for capturing buyers.  (no sound) thank you.


>> Thank you very much, Pan Jing.  I for one announced the ‑‑ we have a timely limitation.  No more 10 minutes.  Otherwise, we will lose [INAUDIBLE] too long.  Now, I would like to ask you to talk to Jovan.  He has to leave early.  I apologize.  I won't keep you longer.  Please, Jovan.

>> JOVAN:  Thank you.  I will try to compensate for the time by being very brief.  Before I start, I would like to add to comments on the panel Jing on those ‑‑ the deliveries organized in China and that level of ingenuity and creativity of people to do it.  I use [INAUDIBLE] local term from Swahili used in Kenya for alternative economy that you can find sometimes on the dusty streets where people are trying to solve complete problems by using their creativity.  Very often with little money and with a lot of success.  And yesterday to the session, I used the term to describe also Internet as Internet was.  It wasn't invented as the system that we have today.  There were so many unintentional, creative developments from the introduction of e‑mail and we know the history of the nut.  [INAUDIBLE] is probably the key word which we frust in the modern internet economy.  My presentation (no sound) as you can see, the starting point is the reputation, which is essential for any activity including economic activity and, ah, a lot of investment and efforts that you put in our work to be destroyed in one minute.  And I think that ability is even increased in online environment because it can be useful to make a comparison regular meat environment and online environment throughout.  It is different in an online environment compared to traditional environment.  I would say this one minute is [INAUDIBLE] in the online environment when it comes to reputation.  I am usually not very skillful in dealing with.  Awful those video recorders are brink zero for years.


well, there are a few aspects of the trust which is extremely important it is essentially interpersonal.  We use it in economy.  We use them to discuss society, but it is a trust between individuals.  That should be kept in mind.  Trust requires time to be nurtured.  There are no short cuts when it comes to trust.  You need to develop it over time over consistency and particularly practice.  It is also socially and [INAUDIBLE] contactual.  This is important especially for companies who are acting on the global scale.  They should keep in mind that trust is always, always contractual and it has strong elements of the local capture and of the context now.  How to build trust?  Well, the million dollar question, but I will focus on two aspects.  One is education and training and the other ‑‑ (no sound) it is constructive and close to teaching basel to start from the position that, ah, students or participants can contribute as much as lectures and we usually say that by teaching their learning and we generally apply that.  There is a need to have an aspect for students which is missing in some [INAUDIBLE] of our educational system for various reasons.  People usually confuse the aspect with discipline and those that are completely to different things.  Once I used to play as I mentioned table tennis and one of the lessons which I have from the online learning is if you send a good rotation across the net, you will receive a good rotation back.  It is missing now a days.  We are focusing on skills.  We are focusing on how to.  So the projects on how to do engineering and I think in business schools are now introducing it.  There is a need to introduce more of ethical ‑‑ a teaching on ethics and social responsible business.  It is those ‑‑ there's quick lessons that I can share from our data experience in online training.  And the last point is on standard 26,000.  It is a new standard adopted by standard organizations.  It is still under the radar of mean oh, but it is the area where socially responsible businesses will have to move.  Highlight social policy.  It is not applicable to business sectors, but also to government and choosing academia and it promotes a sustainable business.  There is now a new interest especially after the latest financial crisis about after the first Enron and then later cracking of 2008.  ITC sector in E‑business since it has a vulnerable part should focus more on introducing eyesore as a new way of formalizing test development.  Although, one should keep in mind there are limits how far one can go on formalization without genuine development on trust and interpersonal relation.  I promise I try to be short.  Thank you.

>> Thank you very much.  I think because Jovan has to leave, do you have a couple questions you have to him?  None?  Okay.  Thank you.  You can leave.  Okay.


Now, we go to next speaker.  Dr. Pepper, please.  You have floor.

>> Dr. Pepper:  I am very pleased to be here and pleased to have been invited.  I do not have slides.  So I'm going to have some points in the conversation, but they align completely with your presentation and your discussion in terms of reputation.  The way I would frame it is the importance of trust and how do we build that trust.  What we have found is that as commerce both online and offline develops from and it migrates from brick and mortar to e‑Commerce based upon local and it starts huffing from brick and mortar to online and from global to global, what we're really doing out is building out cover res ponding trust model.  In order to do that, that's imperative that hand, but it is happiness natural.  It's about building reputation.  What I will discuss is precisely what you were talking about and that is the power of the brand.  We also heard this from Ms. Pan.  The power of the brand is the growth of the business.  The incentive structure were around building the trust.  Without that, you wait a moment succeed in the market.  So, this is very nice and complimentary.  I know you have to run.  So I want to make that point directly because you're not going to be there for part of the conversation.

>> In the offline world, we have stores and brands that build their good name through history interaction and their character.  And as Jovan points out, that can be eroded or destroyed very quickly.  In the online world, it can be destroyed even faster.  Society same is not only true in the online world.  It's a multiplier effect.  And e‑Commerce has increased exponentially because as we heard, it's efficient.  It's easy to use and it's built around comfort and confidence.  We heard about the shift and partly because of the confidence and we had that experience in the U.S. as well.  And although we face questions about security, we read about security issues.  The time you will hear more about them and security needs to continue to innovate year over year online sales continues to increase.  So not withstanding some of the issues that we hear about.  The online business whether it's B to B or C to C is growing and growing very quickly as we saw.  And along with that growth, there is a core piece understanding growth in the ways that we can deal with traditional problems, offline problems that are now the online.  So, for example, in the offline world, there's a problem we call bait and switch.  You think you're buying one thing, but it turns out they deliver something else.  Right?  That's an offline world problem.  It's an online world problem.  Fraud, theft and issues like that are problems offline in the brick and mortar world.  There are problems in the online world.  So, as the number of transactions grows into hundreds of millions and billions of transactions, so do the incidents that we have to worry about growth.  Maybe not in the percentage, but in terms of the overall number and therefore, we have to be building responses to those ‑‑ to those issues.  By the way there's an interesting way to think about this with the introductions we talked about in the problem.  I tend to think of a hierarchy.  First I have a question and then that question may lead to an issue.  Only if the issue is not resolved as it resolved in a problem.  I don't assume that because I have a question that's automatically a problem.  Just because there's an issue, I don't assume it's a problem because we may be able to resolve it easily.  Clearly some things evolve to problems.  So I think we need to think about the problems but as we go look, we build solutions.  So, industry itself has built brands and trusted brands.  Right?  And the success in China of Alibaba and these other e‑Commerce companies is because of the building of the brand.  In the U.S. companies like Amazon, eBay, Pay Pal and Target and Mastercard, American Express just like their brick and mortar parts of business, people are using them because they have built trust.  So, each of us who had experiences online I'm sure have had an experience where there was a problem.  So, for me, the most recent one, ah, was about six weeks ago and I got a bill ‑‑ a monthly bill from my American Express.  I was going through the bit.  Consume verse to look very carefully at their bills.  So I looked at the bill and there was a rather large charge that, um, I didn't know what it was.  My wife didn't know what it was.  But there was a telephone number associated with it, but it didn't say what the purchase was for.  So I called the phone number and it turned out it was Pay Pal's operation center that a charge had been put through Pal and somehow they had gotten a hold of my wife's American Express number.  So I was talking to American Express and I was talking to Pay Pal and literally within 15 minutes, the charge was cancelled.  They put out an alert on the person who put the charge on.  They cancelled her card and already had sent out a new one.  You know, there are companies that you can actually work with and you build trust with.  So I feel comfortable buying things online from companies that I don't know because I use payment systems that Pay Pal and Amex.  They have built my trust through personal experience as well as experience they have with others.  And then there's the issue of, um, as we want to buy things across boarders.  Right?  So there are cross‑border transactions.  You know?  I'm not going to buy something from a company that don't know that might be in another country.  So the point is that the first thing is that the companies have a huge incentive to build trust and build their own systems for building that trust.  Otherwise, they will not be successful.  Secondly, as a second‑line of defense, there are consumer protection agencies in virtually every country and there are bi‑lateral agreements across countries, um, a consumer protection agencies.  And, you know, for example, there is something called the lodged on action plan that was started in 2004.  It started with 27 countries that's now grown where they are enforcing laws against spam.  There are bilateral and multi‑lateral agreements because we have a world in which there are national laws.  It's illegal to defraud impeachment it's illegal to steal things.  So what we need to do is to make sure when countries have a role to play, that role is to aggressively enforce consumer laws within their countries.  And this is extremely important.  So, consumers that are doing business in a country feel safe because they know that their consumer protection agencies and law enforcement will go after the bad guys if there in fact is theft.  Each country has its own laws.  It's unlikely and not really feasible or desirable to have a global law on this because each country's laws are different.  There are dozens and dozens of, um, bilateral international anti‑trusted consumer protection cooperation agreements globally with countries.  And I have a long list of them that we can talk about later.  So then there are the questions about the technology.  One of the techno logical methods that we need to, um, give us more confidence.  So the first one that's being developed and maybe we'll talk about it is authentication.  I really know who I'm buying from and does the seller know who I am and can that be authenticated in a way using Pay Pal for a payment is a very good third party authentication mechanism so I can be in a sense anonymous to the retailer.  They don't actually have to know who I am.  All they have to know is that I have a trust relationship with Pay Pal.  Pay Pal is what authenticated me and I have to know that through Pay Pal if there's a precious I'm protected.  So authentication is important and many in the industry and the technology companies are building on next generation authentication and other technologies.  And we have to recognize that one size not going to fit off and that we're looking at multiple approaches to authentication and there's a lot of experimentation going on.  We have to build up the standards and approaches through global standard processees and cooperation.  So I'll stop there and we can talk more about some of these other issues, but thank you very much.

>> Thank you very much, Dr. Pepper.  You are [INAUDIBLE] very clear framework how to address for e‑Commerce list.  Now whether you want to move forward to Mr. Cushman.  Please.

>> Thank you very much.  These are very interesting presentations thus far.  My focus is slightly different my focus is on the threats that exist today and the threats that exist tomorrow that threaten the evolution and the adoption of online or e‑Commerce.  So it's indirectly threatening the trust.  We saw earlier that the adoption rate and the rate of change is dramatic.  It's accelerating at a dramatic pace and that's just on the adoption side.  I will talk about change in the technologies that are at work and I will also highlight that any time there is that much growth or that much money, it's going to attract bad actors, bad guys are going to come as well.  It's an opportunity for growth of malicious actors too.  There isn't a single solution, there isn't a single actor, there isn't a single government that is able to effectively combat the threats in cyber space.  Ms. Pan talked earlier about the trends.  I want to highlight a couple trends.  These are ones that we will see that started already but will really take off in the next years.  The number of people connected to the Internet.  We saw that it is only 27% or 28% penetration of online users of the Chinese population, but then even and it's a similarly small number of users or online shoppers.  The number of devices that will be connected to the internet is going to explode as well.  And the amount of data that, ah exists.  Without careful storage of that data, you have additional risks to online privacy as more devices are connected and if they're not securely provisioned, that also has a negative impact.  And this is just a little bit more data about some of the global trends that we see around social networking.  The thing that I would highlight out of this slide is that you don't see the same trends around the world.  Facebook usage is not as large in China as it is in the rest of the world, but instant messaging?  It's over the top.  And then as I think about it from a threat per spirit or a picture of health.  So how healthy is this online Eco system?  Microsoft publishes the security intelligence report.  Version 10 was out about 5 month ago, almost 6 months ago and version 11 is coming out in two weeks time.  You see the map on the right is the ‑‑ is a heat map that shows infections.  This data is gathered from cleaning tools that Microsoft provides and it provides an interesting view of the global trends.  You can see that China actually doesn't look so bad.  Mexico is pretty bad.

Brazil is pretty bad, but I don't take those as absolute because this is actually a factor of the tools that are deployed to clean.  I have a slide later on that shows the, ah, browser version penetration or the browser version deployment and you'll see that in China, there are many, many, many users.  This is a very high penetration of Internet explorer 6.  That's not the most secure browser.  So maybe the Chinese don't update as much which means that they then don't have current versions of removal tools.  Independent of that though in the middle at the top of the screen, there's a spread of malware and spam and fishing and denial of service attacks.  Those are the same in China as they are the rest of the world and the graphic at bottom left is, ah, bot nets.  So, those tactics whether it's a fishing e‑mail or whether it's spam, those are used to compromise machines which are then joined to a bot net which are then controlled by criminals.  And they can be used for denial of service and they can download key logger and compromise credentials.  I know that credential compromise for the instant messenger, the popular instant messenger in China is a very big problem.  When Microsoft thinks about the cyber threat and how do we actually kind of break that problem into smaller pieces, we first think about the many different kinds of actors and the many different motives.  Many people talk about cyber crime, cyber espionage and cyber war.  From my perspective when I'm trying to think of protect for customers, those distinctions report that important because they use similar techniques and as you saw from the previous one whether it's a fishing e‑mail or spam, those are the same techniques that are used to compromise.  The speed of the attack, ah, accelerates just as the adoption rates accelerate.  And it's difficult to know where these attacks come from because there isn't great authentication, there isn't great attribution back to an individual machine.  So that's some context on the cyber threat landscape.  Recently Microsoft has talked about the similarities between a public health model and Internet health.  And so here are some examples of the similarities and some examples of the things that can be done.  And it certainly reinforces the point that Jovan made about education.  I think about this as a simplified waif thinking about this in terms of populations.  When you think about public health, you think about populations and when you think about that in the Internet health per spirit, you can think about that in terms of users or devices or manslaughter.  I think about that in terms of interactions whether it's cover your mouth or don't shake hands or warn your hands afterwards.  Make sure you know with whom you're communicating.  Is that actually an online site?  And who is buying this?  Is this really ‑‑ this is Pepper?  Perhaps not.  And then I think about it in terms of the environment in which these transactions happen.  Is that actually a health network?  Is it a nice place to live?  Or not such a nice place to live that's infected with many, ah, and so the quality of air might be a similar kind of concept.  When we think about Internet health, it's about education on cyber risks and efforts to detect malware and bot nets.  It's efforts to clean that as well and then after you clean it to make sure that you prevent reinfection.  As I mentioned at the beginning, there isn't one single actor that will prevent these things from happening in the future.  It's about international and international and local collaboration to identify and control the spread.  Microsoft has a program called collective defense that identifies and this is really bringing the public health model to the Internet.  And saying here are the ways that you can collaborative work together to protect and it's about the slide is a little bit difficult to read, but it's about, um, Microsoft has deployed this in our bot net takedown efforts so that we have through legal processees initiated court actions against bot net owners and then we have cut the head off of the bot net taken over the command and control center.  We then get information about infected host machines that we're connecting to those bot nettings and we deploy those.  We share that information then with certs around the world.  We have a very strong relationship with CNCERT, the Chinese national CERT with whom we collaborate on, um, cleaning up those infect the machines within China.  And also it's very interesting to know that Microsoft erased the idea for set of the Internet ‑‑

>> Now I want to ‑‑ I want to make an introduction.

>> Thank you, Mr. GAO.  I am very honored to be here and as we're running a little late.  So I'm going to be very brief.  So I'm going to give you an overview on the e‑payment marketing in China so that I can talk about building trust in the e‑Commerce environment from the payments perspective because as you know, payment is very crucial and integral part of e‑Commerce and it provides the foundational infrastructure for e‑Commerce.  So, um, first of all, let's take a look at some of the key factors that are driving the growth.  E‑payment is actually one of the fastest growing sectors in the whole Internet in China and there are several key reasons.  First of all, if you look at the, um, if you look anywhere in the world, if you look bat economy, there's this interesting phenomena that anywhere when the GDP per cap ita reaches a certain thresh hold and there is $4,000, then you will see this transition from the traditional economy to e‑Commerce.  And also from a Legacy system to E‑payment.  And China's GDP has surpassed $10,000 in 2010.  We've going through this.  E‑Commerce is pushing a shift from the traditionally manufacturing and investment and that's where it is driven gross to this consumption gross because of the rise of the middle class and consumer economy.  There is also this greater need for E‑payment.  And, of course, the development of E‑payment cannot happen without the development of underlying infrastructure.  Namely Ben King Internet and the mobile network.  We're also seeing this change of consumer habit negligence China's consumers because traditionally there's this saying that the Chinese do not believe anything that's not visible.  I don't believe in tangible things.  Online shopping has become the primary means for shopping.  Right?  Some of the people actually buy everything online.  And there's also the rice of the e‑Commerce because the Internet is actually going through this transition from information driven platform to a transaction written platform.  It is what search is to information.  So the rule that payment is going to play in the Internet is just like what the role of the search engines played in the past.  Now, of course, payment is not only about the e‑Commerce.  It's also about the traditional industries.  So we're also seeing this electronification.  For example, like the air‑travel industry as well as the telecom industry, there are traditional businesses that go traditional economy and they're going through this tradition to adopt e‑Commerce and E‑payment as well.  So, let's take a look at the style statistics and some of the numbers here, Ms. Pan talked about it.  Now, the first one shows the development, the market gross of E‑payment.  As you can see, um, the E‑payment market has endured explosive growths in the past couple of years.  From 2005 to 2010, there is this over 100% annual grows from year to year.  Actually, my numbers here are a little bit outdated.  In 2010, if I remember correctly, the total transaction volume has surpassed 1 trillion RMP.  That's roughly $150 billion U.S. dollars.  Now, the interesting thing is that even with this transaction.  Transaction volume, the E‑payment market is only about 3% of the total payments.  That means that E‑payment market is due at a very early stage is still in its infancy.  Now I just talked about the gross of the E‑payment.  Like I said, it can not happen without the development of the underlying infrastructure.  If you look at bank infrastructure, this basically shows you the number of the cards issued in the past 10 years.  And believe it or not, China has one of the largest infrastructure for Ben carts with over 2 billion carts issued by various domestic back.  Among all these 2 billion cards issued, a small percentage is credit cards.  There is still a huge potential for future growth.  Now, this slide shows you the percentage of the online payment users as percentage of the total Internet users.  And as you can see in 2010, the percentage is only about 27.  So in 2011, it's expected to pass 30%.  So the percentage of the online payment users is actually increasing over the years.  What that means again is that Internet is going through this transition from a counter driven platform to a transaction and commerce driven platform.  So more people are starting to shop online to buy things online.  Now, in this slide, it shows the sector breakdown for the E‑payment market.  As you can see here, the dark green bars represent online shopping.  And the point here is that E‑payment is not only about e‑Commerce in the narrow sense.  It's also about many other traditional, more traditional sector.  One example I can give is the airline industry.  Now before 2006, most of the airlines are dependent on paper tickets.  So the way they collect the payments was really cash on delivery because when you ordered a ticket from the airline, there's going to be this delivery guy who is going to send you a ticket and then collect the cash, but after 2006, all major airlines and travel agents began to adopt E‑tickets.  So it doesn't make any sense anymore to use cash on delivery.  So all the airlines and travel agencies began to adopt ePayment.  Now, it's the same in many other traditional sectors as well.  For example, like telecom insurance and financial services.  So, what this means again is that E‑payment is not only about e‑Commerce.  It is also about providing payments for traditional industries.  So the electronic of the sixers has become a big driver for the adoption of E‑payments.  Now, China has also brook the largest and mobile user Internet.  White largest mobile network in the world was over 800 million mobile subscribers.  It has also become the largest mobile Internet users.  It is also going to drive the adoption for mobile payment.  Now, the interesting fact again here is that the penetration for mobile users still rout low.  This is probably the 2009 data.  Still the China's penetration rate is still below the world average.  So you can see China has become the largest mobile user base and all internet user base.  It's actually a combination of these three elements.  Now, information is just about portal and search and transactions is just about online shopping and e‑Commerce.  And people is just about online communities and social media.  And you probably heard about the three kingdoms of China's internet, which is also referred to as BAT.  It is Baydu.  It's the largest search engine in China and Alibaba is focused on transactions because it is the largest E‑platform.  Now, why is payment important?  Because if you look at evolution of the Internet in China, it's basically going through different stages.  Now, if you look at 10 years ago, most of the Chinese companies that went IPO were basically big portals and search engines.  So, that was the age and portal search because back then, people per southeast Internet primarily as a platform for sharing information.  And five years ago, if you look at Internet companies that went IPO, most of them are online gaming operators.  That was the age of the entertainment and applications and these guys, if you look at now eight days, the three major trends of China's Internet are e‑Commerce, social media and mobile Internet.  It's emergent of e‑Commerce, there is going to be a greater need.  So the go other areas for social media and mogul Internet, I will talk about more in later slides.  Now, let's get back to the talk about trust.


Because trust is actually an issue anywhere in the world, but I think it is more of an issue in China's internet China's commerce.  There are many factors that can be contributing to this.  But if we look deeper into the culture factor, it's quite interesting.  I actually took this slide.  I took the diagram from professor Richard, the geography of which he analyzed differences between the thinking patterns between Asians and the westerners.  So, if you look at the social identity, which is basically how you relate self to other social groups, you can find out that Asians perceive itself differently from the westerners.  If you look at the Asian societies, most of the Asian sets on are [INAUDIBLE].  So there's an emphasis on commitment to family and kingship.  So there's emphasis on family and friends.  So in Asian societies because most people have this holistic view.  So they don't perceive the self as an independent agent as independent individual.  Most of the Asians were beg embedded in a big group of family and friends.  Also because the Asian sets on are more of a relationship‑base societies instead of rural base societies.  So, there is less emphasis on values.  So they distance themselves from the other groups which are basically the strangers.  Basically, there are more individualists.  There is more emphasis on the personal freedom and the individual identity.  Society [INAUDIBLE] is less coupled with the in group of friends and family, but they also do not make a greater ‑‑ they also do not make a great distinction between the in group and out group.  So the implication is that the cost of trust is very high in Asian society.  Now, the erotic twist is that in those societies that put an emphasis on commitment to family and friends and kingship, they trust less in strangers.  And Internet is all about trust in strangers.  If you want to scale in the E‑commerce in an Internet economy, we really have to have this trust for strangers.  So how do we solve this problem?  One of the interesting aspect is to look at online communities and social media because online opportunity is actually the bridge between the in group and the outgroup.  If you look at the people at the online communities, they're not exactly friends and families and they're not exactly complete strangers.  So they kind of fall in between.  Now, if you look at the payment system, we have to realize that payment is not about a single point solution.  It's more about a complicated Eco system that involves multiple parties.  So to address the trust issue, you really need to have the collaboration between all these parties.  You really need to have a joint effort among all the parties involved.  Now, if you look at the payment Eco system, there are flee fundamental elements.  We have the merchants and we have the consumers.  Now, the found sources are basically what kind of payment you use to make payment.  By default, we use the bank as the source and mainly we'll use the debit cards or credit cards to make payments, but in some case, we could also have known bank source.  You can use law 10 points and reward points as a form of cash to make payments and merchants are basically sellers and consumers are basically buyers.  As I mentioned earlier, to build the trust, you have to have the joint effort between all these different parties.


Now also to address the trust problem, you have to build trust at different levels namely the technology level, the business level and the policy level.  I won't elaborate more on the technology level because there are plenty of examples.  I will emphasize on the, level and policy level.  Now, I'm going to give you ‑‑ I'm going to give you two examples.  The first example is C2 C world.  If you look at default payment tool, the [INAUDIBLE] is equivalent to that in China.  And they use Ali pay to facilitate payments between buyers and sellers.  You're not doing to pay to the sellers directly because most of the sellers on TOBO are SMEs and mom and pop shops and they're individual sellers.  So there's a lack of trust.  So the way it works is that the buyers will pay a deposit into Ali pay.  They pay in platform and it will notify the seller it has received the payment and then the seller can deliver the product to the buyer.  Only after the buyer has confirmed the satisfaction with the product, then they will release fund to the seller.  So there's this process between the buyer and seller to increase the trust level.  Now, the second example I'm going to give is in the B2B world.  Basically the credit payment that we provide at eBay.  I will take the airline industry because a lot of travel agents are under the cash flow pressure.  They have to purchase tickets first airline first before they can sell to the second tier travel agents and the passengers.  So what they can do is actually request credit from Epay and Epay has collaborated with some of the major banks so we can accept a credit line to the credit agents.  Now we can issue a credit payment to the airline and then we can actually use that credit line to purchase the airline to allow the travel agents to purchase airline tickets from the airlines.  And then they can resell tickets to the buyer or to the second tier travel agents.  And because Epay also processed the payments for those buyers when neigh purchase tickets from the travel agents so we can manage the risks associated with transactions.  And only after we left payments first buyers we're going to make the settlements with the travel agents.  The interesting fact here is that we do not need to ask for the mortgage from the travel agents because we can actually have the close loop management for the cash flow and we address the risk issue.  And then we can generalize this credit payment to other verticals and are the industries.  So we can basically make it used for any supply chain management for any merchants when there's a cash flow problem.  We can ‑‑ when the merchant requests a credit, we can extend a credit line and allow the merchants to buy products from the other merchants up stream and then day can resell to the second tier merchant or to the consumers.  Because we also manage and process the pages first consumers, then we can finally do the settlement with the merchants.  So, this way we can also address the trust issue and the B2B world and in this motto, Epay has become a financial tool not only a payment utility.  So I talked about how to address the trust issue at a business processes level.  And I'm also going to quickly talk about the how to address the trust issue at the policy level.  So if you are looking at the regulatory environment, we have a regulatory environment in China.  We have the central guide, which is people's bank China who issues the licenses and also is the main body regulation.  And below the central band, we have this payment association that consist of all the major banks as well as the payment providers.  So the principal is really to emphasize on the self‑disciplinary and all self‑regulatory approach.  At bottom level, we have payment providers as E‑pay and Ali‑pavement now in one of my earlier sliced, I talked about the three major trends in China today which are e‑Commerce, social media and mobile Internet.  So I'm going to briefly talk about the influence of mobile Internet and social media on e‑Commerce and E‑payment.  So I stole this slide from Pay Pal and take iPhone.  When some online purchases and application from iPhones ap store is actually making a download from through the Internet, it has nothing to do with the carrier.  And although the transaction happen on the iPhone, it's actually just an extension of the internet.  And if you look at China's internet, a lot of the major banks and ePayment service providers are also leveraging the mobile tools.  Every time we purchase something using a credit card issues by any major domestic bank in China, they will send you verification short message.  When you receive that message, you know you actually use that credit card for online purchase.  So, the mobile phone has already become an integrated verification tool for this online process for online payment process and also the e‑Commerce process.  Oops.  Okay.  Can we go to the ‑‑ sorry.  Let me go through the slides very quickly.  Okay.  So I will briefly talk about impact of social media e‑Commerce.  Now, the first point I'm going to make is really the very nature of the social media.  And we always refer to the ‑‑ we always refer to social media as new media and if you look at history of Internet, the world wide web has only been around in the past 20 years and this whole new social media phenomena has only been around for the past five years.  The key features of a social media is really, ah, that is par participatory and it is rifle and tribal.  If you look at so called old media, the mass media which is television in radio and magazine, ah they're actually not that old because they're only around for the past 200 years.  After the industrial revolution.  Now, if we longer ‑‑ if we look longer throughout the history and in the past 5,000 years, 90% of the time, you know, people basically exchange information through gossip and small talk.  It has been tribal and participator toy.  It is a return to human nature.  It really combines the participator toy and interactive nature of the tribal media and also the scale of the mass media.  So that's why it's so important.  That's why it's very successful.  And that's why there's this talk about social commerce because social media can use a generator for e‑Commerce traffic.  It can be used as a credit reporting tool because there has been this talk about how the social media can be used as a credit reporting tool in the developing countries because in a lot of the developing countries like China and India, there's a lack of the credit rating VRS, but the interesting thing is that if someone has say 200 friends on the social media network or has 20,000 followers micro block, does that mean the bank can issue a credit card to that person?  That person's reputation is actually in checks and balances.  And right now, that is only in speculation, but I am sure in the near future, there will be something neat coming out of this.  Now, the last example I will give is really about building social trust.  Because we have worked with more than a dozen charity recommendations in China and we have become one of the top 3 online donation sites in China and we have also raise over 25 million in donation through online payments.  We have a charity theme with city blank in China.  Now the interesting thing about online donation and online charities in China is that it really ecodes the spirit of the internet, which is the long tail effect because to change the world, you don't really need a few heroes to do a lot of extraordinary work.  You just need a lot of the average people.  On the Internet, small things can add up and make a huge difference.  And also the Internet can provide greater transparency and openness to charity works.  But with that, we can also make a positive social impact using e‑payment and e‑Commerce.  Thank you very much.


>> Thank you very much.  The program is time out already.  But we have on my list we have Mr. BRUCK.

>> If I am as short as my past predecessors, I can talk for 25 minutes.  He didn't make comments that I didn't.  Therefore, I can't be short.  First of all, thank you again for the invitation.  For the purpose of this session, I put together basically three things.  The give an overview in the context of Internet as a good practice form which led here today.  Secondly I will talk about mobile commerce in the relationship to trust and thirdly, I will talk about e‑Commerce in a relationship to trust.  Let's see if it works.  What the focus of the world sum it award is basically to look at the knowledge economy and knowledge society in terms of its inclusive and also the richness and diversity of its character.  And, ah, we see very clearly the data from China provided us with ample there is a lot of digital divides and the most important digital divide, which is coming up is the contempt divide.  When we talk about content, we'll basically talk about the mark is of Internet, ICTs and the creative use of them for specific kind of context.  What it does is take the world sum it information society seriously in terms of digital divide, content gap and local content.  When we take about digital divide, most people talk about the access divide, but there is also a cost divide and there's a skill divide and also usage divide and you saw some of the data from China show you very clearly what the usage dividing this.  Most importantly, there's the content divide and some of the work which IGF has done in the last three years has been very error critical to close this contempt divide a little bit in terms of the URL and the top level domains and other issues.  But the content gap is something which is serious because of the richness and the diversity of projects and products and what we are actually doing is using the global mechanism of a contest scheme to basically close this and to show people what they are doing.  The world sum it award is Internet Society of China is part of the family I must say.  And I'm happy to say.  It's an invitation project for everybody to participate as long as there's an open contest and its authority lies on the independence of its jury.  So some might not be able to survive easily in the Chinese market whether winner takes all and to cut costs, people are just very brutal, but you will see some of the relation are really interesting in that sense.  So I will look at what we do in terms of the various different kinds of platforms here.  The winners from the mobile platform.  Trust is a critical thing for people to be effective as consumers.  And when you look at the mobile shopper, there is a solution from the U.S., from the consumer union there and the most important thing is that you are when you need it most as a shopper, you are getting the information.  It's easy.  You scan with a bar code.  You browse the consumer reports and you get buying advice.  You get information on a reputation of a company and you get the first prize comparison.  That is active trust building and it is empowering the consumer in a way that he or she can actually at the point of sale act on this.  In the country of safair com and pioneers of [INAUDIBLE], but what you can see here is that in India where 50% of the population has no access to banking, you have this kind of secure micro business and micro transaction service and that is actually a way of very much like the service and soon the transaction with the mobile operator people are having that kind of access and the trust issue here is that you have actually a credit history.  And you build up a credit history although you never had actual bank account before because you have no in that sense how you are acting in terms of paying your mobile services.  Very interesting also in U.K ., which is the first mobile web for a U.K . retailer.  What is interesting in terms of the trust here it's again consumer trust because it's an automatic sync between what is on mobile, what's on the web and what's in the store.  And so, you're not having the sense of being cheated by something beg different in the store than what you have.  That's 24,000 products.  So it's actually one of the largest mobile commerce sites in the world.  Something which is very, very interesting in terms of trust issue is from Russia.  And it's a mobile vending service from ivory.  What is really interesting here is that it enables small some medium sized vending operators to set up vending machines, not just at low cost and to minimize the down time, but they are enabled to the mobile payment to make sure that they are free of vandalism, that they're getting actually not cheated for the payments and that they are actually able to do business even when store hours are closed.  Lastly on that is something which is very interesting in terms of excellence renavigated from the [INAUDIBLE], which is the train operator.  What does trust mean here?  It means that you have realtime travel information on tram, bus, ship, train, subway in terms of where you want to go.  And how this is done is by the integration of a GPS where you are.  You put in your destination and if you are the fastest way going there is by foot, then you can also go by foot.  Let me come to the examples from the winners in this year which we selected in China when we were there with a grand jury in April.  And here the first one is [INAUDIBLE] scan.  It is interested so far as it is a cost effective service for people who are small and medium size businesses in the business of soothing, architecture and also design to develop actually 3K modeling of any air object and using digital pictures without having to easy is to the CAT system or a 3D laser scanner.  What is really interesting it integrates the workflow and the trust issue is critical here in terms of doing this between the designers, the consumers and also the teams which operate on this.  This is an issue which we have come to a number of times before as well.  Here what we have is the use of social media for marketing and that relates to some of the other issues which was here before.  You have here and you pursuit integrated platform where you can have tutors on Facebook linked in this order to coordinate campaigns and also to actually in a trust worthy [INAUDIBLE] to contact people in this regard.  From Canada, we move to the united [INAUDIBLE] and here this is something which is very interesting as an E‑tendering solution for the companies.  There are 600 active customers on this.  The largest companies in the us and anybody who knows what corruption means is the E‑handling for projects is absolutely essential.  It reduces that sort of overhead.  It is easy, secure and cost and time and effective.  Let me equipment come to the last one.  This is interesting because it comes from Ghana.  There the issue of trust is triple.  First of all, you have here a 3K tracking from ‑‑ on the existing and self‑generate maps for flight management services in all of west A46A. the interesting thing here it is so based on fuel consumption and it gives you the best route on that basis.  It allows driver to invoice on basis of the mileage and because of transparency, it discourages dishonest drivers.  But also what it does it is a system to retrieve vehicles if they're stolen and also to track actually the most efficient routes for people if they want to use them in an optimized fashion.  Thank you very much for giving me the chance to show you in a very brief fashion the winners of the world sum it away and the mobile.

>> Thank you very much.  Thank you very much.

>> You're welcome.

>> There's a lot of case studies you have done.  It is very interesting.  Very good.

>> Thanks.

>> Ah, I think we have no time for discussion and comments for long time.  But maybe I ‑‑ I will open for two questions or comments.  You.  You have?  Okay.  Please.

>> Thank you.  [INAUDIBLE] presentation.  Thank you.  I want to ‑‑ I want [INAUDIBLE] freeing committee.  I wanted to ask a question related to the concerns of internet society of China.  You say that the ‑‑ in your [INAUDIBLE] that the IOS works in the industry several regulation.  And in that context, I would like to know what your view is of the recent grow by your country along with several other countries.  [INAUDIBLE] conduct which involves [INAUDIBLE] information of event sites and [INAUDIBLE] work streamism.  How does the Internet Society of China relate to that request by your government along with other governments?

>> Ah, I think the enter‑society with China, the major function works are really reading in these books.  You can find.  Mainly we're two aspects to promote Internet application development in particular in the rural area.  And the second one, we are encouraged in the industry to articulate the private sector to make [INAUDIBLE].  For example, we are ‑‑ we have done a lot of separate regulation and [INAUDIBLE], anti‑virus and such activities.  I think you know in China Internet users is coming very fast and also not only e‑Commerce, but also E‑government and E‑card show and education, everything.  Every find.  Internet connected is ‑‑ I think it's Internet pay more and more important in China.  As a [INAUDIBLE] over the world.  Okay.

>> Hi.  This is Edmon.  We were talking about brand ‑‑ not really brand, but reputation and as we build in the e‑Commerce and I was very much impressed by the photo that Jing Pan shared in terms of how the logistics are and I'm sure a lot of the parcels get missing because of that.  Sort of kind of a question I want to ask is when, um, there was a big movement sort of in electronics and actually in any kind of products when China entered the market and created a lost cheap products.  People used to have fridges or things that work for 20 years, but now we're getting products that work much less, lifetime is much less.  Basically the whole concept is that you spend ‑‑ for example, you spend 1/3rd of the amount to buy the product, but you buy three times less.  That has become a trend.  That is certainly how product are now built.  Their life of product are usually much shorter than we used to have in the past.  So, I guess the question is if we look at China and how it's developing, how the e‑Commerce market is developing, I think Jing and Chen mentioned.  I guess my question is can trust built on being the cheapest and, you know, being able to stick around lodgest and not necessarily having the best service or trust and confidence in terms of quality or is this just a matter of a non‑mature market?  The question is whether ‑‑ is this just a matter of a non‑mature market or is this a possible future model of e‑Commerce that we can really not trust anybody and maybe sometimes you get it and maybe sometimes you don't.  You really won't debt service, but you get the cheapest.

>> Maybe [INAUDIBLE] you can give the answer.

>> Sure.  My view on the e‑Commerce industry in China is that it's going to be highly diversified because China as a country is extremely diversified.  We call it ‑‑ we sometimes say that it's composed by 56 nationalities and eth96 groups and so on and there are people who are richer and more well baring than the others.  But different people are all after e‑Commerce.  And even people ‑‑ e‑commerce is popular in cities where people are less price sensitive and still extremely popular in third year and fourth year.  Cities are traditional retail is limited.  So, I would say that in the future, it would probably happen that companies who are able to satisfy the needs for different segments would probably be able to succeed.  One of the fastest growing segment we think B2 C is luxury.  And it's heavily invested.  And definitely people are looking for quality services and quality product and rather interesting is logistics providers are not necessarily able to supply such [INAUDIBLE] the luxury clients needs.  So that's why a lot of companies are building their own system to support it; however, is it efficient?  Is it good for economy of scale?  Not necessarily.  That's why they're tremendous opportunities in China right now and a trust is established at different levels for different type of customers and service providers.

>> Let me add something to that.  So one of the big advantages of e‑Commerce, um, is the, um, reputation building with the quality is getting worse.  I think that, you know, there's a range of quality, but I think with people, it's part of the transparency of the product you are buying.  There are all kinds of online reviews and people who are buying in China online or using online to find out information about products they will buy the traditional shop.  They have more information and their consumers reviews are actually building a completely different system about the quality of products.  Of course when you go to the online sites, there is wide disagreement, but that's okay.  The fact is there is a lot more information.  So I don't agree that the trend is everything getting lore quality.  I think you're seeing a wired range.  The real issue for the consumer is do they know what they're getting?  There's more information today provide by other consumers who are evaluating online.  So I actually think that this is in some ways the reverse of the concern and the classic one is the consumer report us that pointed out where you can take your smartphone, take a picture of it, it recognize its and gives you reviews of the product.  So that is more information.

>> I think, that um, you are entirely right.  The diverse of what you say is actually the case because it's just not because of the very important point that you made clear.  The question of quality is always an issue of accessibility, of information, the transparency of information, the authentication regarding the information that refers actually to that which is there and then actually also to deliver it.  But there is something which is even more important than that especially important in developing countries.  It also limits fraud and corruption from that kind of exchange.  And that is something which is very, very important.  A lot of the things which we see especially in the E, and E‑government category in the world sum it award have very much to do with the whole transaction chain which is linked to the information chain and to the communication chain that holds transaction chain b much more transparent and controllable for the end user.  And that is something which is very, very important because if it would not be the case, none of what we heard today would actually work.  Okay?  But I think your question was very much to the point that I thank you very much for asking this.

>> I think I have to say ‑‑ we have to close our [INAUDIBLE].  Half hour.  I think there are variables and very interesting and so I would like to thank all the panelists for your contribution and for the audience to join us for a long time.  I hope maybe next year IGF we will continue our discussion on e‑Commerce, trust environment.  Thank you again.

>> Thank you.