A Practical and Pragmatic Look at Making Cloud Successful in Developing World

28 September 2011 - A Workshop on Other in Nairobi, Kenya

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Full Session Transcript

September 28, 2011 - 16:30PM 


The following is the output of the real-time captioning taken during the Sixth Meeting of the IGF, in Nairobi, Kenya. Although it is largely accurate, in some cases it may be incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. It is posted as an aid to understanding the proceedings at the session, but should not be treated as an authoritative record.


>> Good afternoon, everyone.  First of all, I would like it welcome all of you in the room and remotely.  We will be supported by Lis Franz as remote moderator and I would like to welcome our distinguished panelists and I will ask them to introduce themselves right now right after I'm done with introducing myself.  My name is Imad hoball A. I am happy to be here.

>> PHILIP L. VERVEER:  Thank you.  I'm Phil Verveer.  I am the U.S. coordinator.

>> ROBERT GUERRA:  My name is Robert Guerra.  I am the project director of freedom.

>> JEFF BREUGGEMAN:  I am Jeff Breuggeman.

>> I am the device chairman of the world technology and alliance responsible for SARS in Africa.  And also the one of the five global business reprints in the CSTD work group on IGF improvement.  Thank you.

>> BURT KALISKI:  I am Burt Kaliski.

>> Thanks, everyone.  We just will be discussing how Cloud computing relates to basic rights and how critical it is for human, social and economic development especially in the developing countries.  And how we could make it achieve the goals.  Cloud computing builds on the Internet.  Should the government not much different than the Internet basically hands off?  It's everyone's responsibility to make sure Cloud computing does not increase risks to free speech and stays up into innovation, new idea uses unlike some of the countries in the past few months T. should be free of entergovernmental controls and rules and regulations and rule and 45 censorship and are the tools of political, repression, hence lead into growth development.  Low should it lead to growth?  The Cloud computing is a par dime for economic development project opportunities for developing countries seeking to be engaged in world markets.  It forces open the door to meet millennium goals.  Analysts are going for Cloud computing and they are snapped in Cloud businesses at a rapid pace.  Gardener forecasted that by the end of 20 references the Cloud businesses will have overall hosting and market excluding co‑location and mass market hosting.  The 2010 garden and magic quadrant study, not that it is the time for great opportunities and great risk for the service providers at the Cloud market.  New [INAUDIBLE] previously marketing are entering the area and are able to make both investments in an attempt to catch up with more established providers.  As been said, Cloud computing is a paradigm shift similar to the 20th century by electric grades.  We used to maintain it, operate it and pay for the diesel fuel.  It is, I believe, more distribute across boarders.  Broad band and fixed mobile to many more participant, Cloud computing is quite convenient due to cheaper devices and lower storage capacities and holds great promises for customers that are entrepreneurs in Africa and in developing countries.  Cloud computing office small businesses a great competitive advantage.  Small to medium businesses, the economic development are definite beneficiaries and must be encouraged to take advantage of Cloud computing platforms and services.  The human capacity is key.  Higher section one industry that already takes advantage of Cloud computing; however, stability and trust inhibit collaboration in universities that are work together towards computing.  United sourcing student e‑mail is quite common.  Similar important benefits are possible and ready to be extended to other industries like health and financials.  What implementable solutions could we identify for developing countries like the African countries to greatly benefit from these development to improve their educational systems and economies.  It is paid per use for in demand serves they can be deployed in real time over the Internet.  They delivered serve siss to the user with back software and hardware requirement allowing to use to focus on the businesses in this results.  Cloud computing is expected to enable small medium business to enter the market with lore upfront cost to operate without a large IT department.  It offers all users the opportunity for Spain and only for computing and use start ups, their ability to scale up and down and for innovate, on it office greatly reduced force entry.  I refeet in what I am saying in things that have been said already, but I didn't want to recreate some things.  The lack of IT infrastructure in developing countries, the new infrastructure for developing Cloud computing.  This is becoming easier in Africa and are the developing countries with the deployment the under sea cables and fiber telecominfrastructure.  For inter‑African trade, many obstacles like financials and infrastructure standing as prohibitors.  It provides an Avenue of clear trades that can encourage trade rather than inhibit it.  The Cloud seems to be the answer to providing it.  Addressing costs and access and diversity yet the distinguish universityd nation of Cloud computing raises several Internet governance questions.  Those questions become more urgent as a result and a response to as a result of and response to risks, threats and types of governance.  We have all left young generation infatuations with being connected and plugged in and the popularity of young platforms.  Young generations and platforms are no different.  They maybe more connected than elsewhere in the world.  Cloud computing risk and challenges and Internet governance related to data retention, privacy, security, geo location and intellectual property rights and government and law enforcement corporation and transnational location issues.  Just as Cloud services offerings are gaining broad acceptance, incident like the amazon's web services are given great concerns about the reliability and security of Cloud communication.  In midapril as we all know, amazon experienced a multi‑outage resulting from a manual configuration problem during a regular capacity upgrade in one of their data centers.  But is this different than the regular problems that we encounter in non‑Cloud computing environments?  Or did it sound bare because it impacted users globally and could it have been avoided with systemization?  Transparency is in this regard key.  Customers concerned about reliable might limit damage from such outages by their diversifying their Cloud providers.  And how could Africa deal with this.  What used to be on a user's personal computer will no longer be on a larger global servers.  This is for sharing and collaboration.  But is it for privacy?  Does online privacy and data security and sovereignty main most important issues to consumers, businesses and governance?  Several questions are raised.  Are the users and in developing countries as concerned about the location or the country where their data are stored or should their main concern be security, not location?  On the positive side, privacy is quickly become a marketing advantage that companies are going to assert on the Internet and in Cloud computing.  And consumers and businesses should be able to select from a larger, more competitive group of providers.  There is a lot of intellectual property around world to care for.  So how can copy right protection be in the Cloud and developing countries?  How will the young African generation look at ownership?  How significant are the challenges of being Cloud service provider and how do they respond to law enforcement requests?  How do we keep Cloud computing from pushing developing countries towards what is become more consumers rather than producers?  Many inhibitors can lead to slowing down economic growth.

Final Lee,ness vary on whether some regulations have handed reggualing as or best achieved objectives.  Some believe that the real compressive system would allow companies to know what is permissible and what is not.  And some others say that act legislation with teeth as responsible companies are acting in good faith and why should they worry about regulations.  Keep in mind that flexibility allows us to act more quickly.  What works with Africa?  It is a strong enough policy to emerge and promote innovation or our government directive and strong migrations are required.  How is Africa supposed to deal with privacy, confidentiality, confidentiality privacy and interaction and to the Internet?  How are these issues affecting Cloud computing, uses by developing in African countries and how do we stop it from stifling progress and economic growth in these countries?  How do we encourage small and medium,s to participate in the Cloud computing businesses and should governments in Africa and developing country set and find legal standards.  Thank you.  It's a long introduction, but I thought I would give you overall view of Cloud computing in general before we get into the questions.  I asked ambas doer verveer first.  What are the principal benefits and challenges for government agencies in the developing world.  Should they deal with them?  Whatting be learned from your experience in the U.S. with other countries especially like the bilateral discussions and agreements.

>> Let me begin by just very briefly mentioning that in the United States, we have initiated a policy that we call Cloud first for the federal government.  This is a policy that our chief information officer has propagated to all American agency directing that they which is make their first efforts in terms of dat storage, data processing to, ah, make use of Cloud capabilities.  At the first approach at this, there is an estimate 20 billion and over $80 billion of services that will migrate to the Cloud we hope very, very quickly.  Now, there are for us and for all administration including those in Africa, there are legitimate questions about the issue of whether or not there are certain kinds of information or aught not leave in international boarders.  In the United States, we have made a very careful effort to tell our agencies they need to categorize their information across three broad segments.  No sensitivity, medium sensitivity and high sensitivity.  Except for high sensitive matters, there aught to be no obligation to on the part of U.S. government agencies to store information exclusively within U.S. boarders.  In other words, we think that, um, it is perfectly acceptable for information to be stored and to flow freely around the world except for the most sensitive kinds of information that, ah, our agency deal with.  This, I think, in terms of moone example maybe the most important one.  One needs to overcome the notion that, um, either requirements with respect to citizen privacy or requirements with respect to government privacy require that there be only national storage and national processing.  We hope that this example is one that all countries will take up because of the benefits of the Cloud.  Now Mr. Chan, you have given us a very good and thorough review of the advantages of the Cloud, but I think it warrants underscoring perhaps two or three of these.  Cloud computing as was so many segments of the ICT sector is one where the users are going to gain vastly more than the producers ultimately.  The value of using ICT generally, but especially ever using the Cloud business models with the services available under the Cloud are going to produce incalcoolable value for the users.  So we want to be sure we don't do something that unnecessarily inhibit that in terms of government policies.  And one of the most important government policy, one that has to be worked out between and among governments is as you mentioned.  Issues having to do with privacy.  It is a value that in some dimensions is universal and human begs care about their privacy and governments have arrangements to help individuals protect their privacy of all kinds.  We have to be sure that we do not as we protect that value, um, impose limitation or prevent the function and consumption of Cloud services.  We have to find a sensible balance with respect to that.  And this is particularly the case with respect to the advantages of Cloud services provide for mall and medium size enterprises which are precisely the ones these days we count on for introducing innovation and count on for raising employment.  It is obviously something of great interest in Africa and around the world.  The Cloud services assuming they're not necessarily inhibit are going to offer wonderful v.  As I say, it is incumbent upon all governments not to impose policies that would necessarily inhibit the consumption of these services.

>> Thank you.  Jeff, from an operators point of view and as a global operator with interestd in the developing count Reese, how do you see the form of a national corporation?  What form of international corporation and law enforcement do you see necessary to push forward with Cloud computing in the region?

>> JEFF:  Thank you.  That's a great question and I think we see a lot of benefits to working within the existing structure that already exists for both cyber security and I would add law enforcement.  I do think the issue of data becoming portable on a global basis is changing law enforcement in new ways to work together and I think as a private company, what we're trying to do is to support efforts that can both enhance law enforcement while avoiding things like the local storage as a reaction to say I don't feel like I can, ult, effectively perform the law enforcement investigation in a Cloud environment and my reaction may to be support a local storage.  I knowky get access to the data.  What we've trying to support is let's find ways to get awful the benefits of Cloud computing and allow the free flow of information while still acknowledging we need to be able to cooperate on a global basis to do that.  On cyber security, I think there's a lot of cooperation that's already happening at a technical level and it's a question of further strengthening the technical linkages and you see that happening at a local regional and global basis.  So it's trying to work each other and the private sector trying to do everything we to support that as well.

>> Thank you.  I'm gonna turn it to Jimson.  In one our presentations you mention, this is for a paradigm shift.  It is collective governance and responsibility.  The public government as PG1 and the private government PG2 which is consisting of private stakeholders with both seemless collaboration for the common good.  How can IT organizations in Africa and Nigeria specific Lee, build confidence in Cloud computing in order to not only live broad, but [INAUDIBLE] other countries.  Keeping in mind what ambassador said about some expertise eventually that is needed in any country to maintain the sensitive information within its boarders.

>> JIMSON OLUFUYE:  Thank you very much.  Really the old model of Cloud computing is a model, business model.  I would say first time from Africa.  It's developing nation to be able to actually cheat [INAUDIBLE].  It is leap frogging.  You want to move very fast.  Cheetah is the fastest anman.

So moving beyond leap frogging and Cloud is a model that we see can make that happen especially within the framework of WITSAs 2015 action lines packets of schools for hospitals, for businesses to be conducted online and for everyone to be connected.  So, ah, I said indeed, the government, the public sector and also government in the private sector must work together in Africa.  That is the public sector that doesn't move in Africa, at least I know about Nigeria.  If government doesn't move, nothing really moves.  So, ah, for example, we've been advocacy for the INindustry to cross that and for us to vary [INAUDIBLE] in that direction.  We've been talking about this for about 20 years, but we commit tothat and we have one ministry of communication technology that is coordinating ICT issues in Nigeria and we have seen the moves that have been made bite government and we're quite happy about it.  So, really every step of that must be involved.  The current model at international level even within IGL, you have a business, the tech community to civil society and [INAUDIBLE] together and they discuss issues that go into development.  They have detective development for that marriage.  So that is all we're pushing and the main capacity as vice chair and [INAUDIBLE] for Africa I want to really make this more pronounced for all developing vision of government.  In Africa in particular, but bringing all steak holders.  There should be no we are the ones that won the election.  If we're interested in creating jobs because assuming [INAUDIBLE] we need to create millions of jobs.  We make that happen and Cloud being a beautiful business model can make that happen.  And for that to be effectively done as industry association, we have been involved in awareness complete, the number of events we organize.  We have one in June and we took ity tod interior to not just fill it out, but provision level.  So, we try to sensitize the policy makers because many related and we're aware what we mean by Cloud computing even though they are benefiting from the services.  We don't know.  It's not arriving.  You know?  But where we're going to awareness and get to know what it actually means and government they want to put resources on the all new infrastructure like data centers.  So, is it all really?  We can actually use this?  Oh, yeah.  But at the same time, we need to feel confidence.  We're going to focus and that is going to be confidence for those that are aware, they wonder how come that amazon is hacked?  How come the U.S. department [INAUDIBLE] and this is happening.  So, we kind of walk in on it and these are a limb bit.  So really we need to also address the issue of confidence and the use of Cloud for developing nation.  And we need to do that fast.  We are in that process and business community must invest in awareness project and you must invest in developing nation because that is the weak point and we need to insure that freedom for the sectors why shroud there.  We can use it cheap really.  Cost benefit.  So is it putting resources into it to bid its own infrastructure from ground up so we use that and now deploy some of these resources for this society.  So, ah, what we know is to work on that framework picture of the go private government work together for sitting on the right strategy for use of Cloud computing.

>> Thank you, Jimson.  How could it be encouraged to engage in the minds in social economic development.  Human capacity is key.

>> One of the things go Cloud computing and what the Internet brines us is community.  Community that goes beyond boarders.  In fact, as we are experiencing with a remote participants in this very event, ah, you put many minds together different part of the world, different experiences, different problems and they can do so much more.  The talent that's gathered here and representd in Africa and are the parts of world have unique weighing of work together.  Two directions where this can happen in terms of Cloud computing on the one hand.  Cloud computing gives an opportunity for name any part of the world to help contribute their ideas to solving problems in any other part.  Secondly, when people have solutions that they like to offer, they have an instant global market for those solution as Cloud services.  So in both ways, it's important to enable that free flow of ideas and services through Cloud computing.

>> Thanks.  Waudo?

>> WAUDO SIGANGA:  You emphasized they should be addressed in Cloud computing.  The Jimson thought a little bit about confidence and building confidence and the part of building confidence would be addressing these issues.  How do you think the African countries could deal with the issues of privacy, confidentiality, intellectual property rights and security to allow both user of Cloud computing and the hosting of Cloud computing to meet provisional development needs and objectives.

>> Thank you.  I think your question can directed to the African countries, but I think one thing I need to emphasize right at onset, it is very important for African countries to work together.  In meeting the challenges of the Cloud and those areas that you mentioned, security, privacy and corporate protection.  The reason is the Cloud just like the internet in general is basically broke up down geographic and political boundaries and the challenge is that they happen to introduce cannot be resolved simply by perhaps using historical jurisdiction context, but must be done by an international resolve and an international togetherness of all countries.  And the other thing is that apart from involving an international effort, the effort should also involve all stakeholders.  It's not just governorrages, but also the Siebel society and the business community as well as the technical community.  I think a forum like the IGF is a good foundation for this kind of work where countries can work together and also the multi‑steak holier model can be brought to discuss and perhaps find solutions to these issues of security, privacy and ‑‑ and corporate protection.  The other thing I think I will also emphasize is what my colleagues have saved is this issue of perhaps bringing confidence to the users is very important.  This can be brought about through a problem of awareness and education about the Cloud.  What the challenges are and what the potential and possibilities are.  I think it's also important went African context because the current laws, regulation and even policies pertaining to things like cope right, better protection, privacy, I think they need to be kind of looked at a second look so they can be updated.  And strengthen to take into account operating within an environment of Cloud computing.  I know many of the African counted Reese, some of the las are fairly key and some of the issues they could have raised from using the Cloud computing parts neigh not be addressable within these jurisdiction.  So the laws policies, regulation will have to be updated.  Thank you.

>> Thank you.  Thanks.  Now, Robert, what must be done to make people feel better and, ah, alleviate their concerns about Cloud computing and how do you think you can participate as an organization in doing that?

>> ROBERT:  So first thank you and I think in regards to civil society, I think first of all, it's insuring the rules of the load and the legal enable government for Africa promodes a safe use of Cloud computing.  That's key.  With my organization, many others have done is really try to assess what is the legal enabling environment so thawe have enough access.  Centers can be closer.  Connection point.  The typical things are key.  But I think the other things on the other panelists is make sure the security issues, the protex of rights whether some of the countries are actually going to be able to protect the data not just of the users, but also companies and others as well and I would say that in many cases, civil society and NGOs face a lost restraints as well.  It's not their primary responsibility.  They just assume they can use a service and count for it to be up in the dat to stay there.  The big issue is a lot of NGOs work in a variety ever things.  In this content they work and document human rights and work document issues of corruption.  The issue of trust is more important.  Banks and others need as well to keep that data safe.  They may choose not use a Cloud service that's based in Africa, but one in another jurisdiction that can provide protection.  So I would say an enable environment of privacy and safety and security is key.  Education and best practices and the other issue for NGOs is the cost issue because if it's a service that's a paid service, it is a sector that's usually keen to get things at lower little cost.  When that haps, maybe not all features are enabled and society Cloud providers are turning on some of the features by default and privacy by default I think would be a key thing.  It is a vulnerable sector, but if they can have the security issues, it will help them and help other business sector users of Cloud computing as well and the continent as a whole will be better for it.

>> Thanks a lot, Robert.  COURA, here we're today from a year ago.  Did you see this issue was well addressed and the Cloud computing is taken off and any change in perspective?  Where do you seat role of associations in Africa and general synagogue in particular to speed up the adoption of Cloud combiting while take care things such as privacy and intellectual property.

>> COURA FALL:  Thank you, chairman.  I speak in English like French speak people, but I think it would be okay.  So as you say, the Cloud is a new innovative and complex concept for Africa.  And, ah, as you say in your presentation, it's a big step ahead of conventional computing in a continent where most of the people cannot access or take food advantageous of existing system they're using because of the lack of expertise.  We need to do more scientific studies or research within the region because each region everything andly in Aflicka we have own issues like access to infrastructure or access to information, but, um, the studies that we should have would give us outlook that help organizations or government to have more confidence in Cloud.  That's what my colleagues say.  We have to build it first confidence after the government or the police you make 11.  And, ah, the ‑‑ after that about the role of ITS [INAUDIBLE] in Africa, if is clear they have a role for that.  It is one step at a time like, ah, as advised by [INAUDIBLE] Cloud in Africa can start like messaging in Cloud.  First there's having the [INAUDIBLE] or CI for the cost.  And, ah, we ‑‑ IT association also have to support innovation to helped Cloud to be, ah, very, um, to be involved in Africa.  And the IT African special is like developers before decision.  We have [INAUDIBLE] for open source.  Foundations.  So the specialists like the developers could develop software using open source tools to offer this kind of services and the kind of standard that exists in the developed counted Reese must be the same that work in data centers in Africa for example.  I don't know the level like government and organization.  Contract here on the frame work is necessary to prevent [INAUDIBLE] and allows company or user to migrate most of the application on the Cloud.  So, we have the issue of security to ‑‑ to ‑‑ to address.

>> Thanks, COURA.  What should be done in freedom in Africa and as an organization, what would be the top priority items that you would like to see in avoiding by governorness in the region?

>> Okay.  Thank you.  I'm going to give the perspective as you mentioned of, you know, NGOs and also in particular human rights defenders.  I think it's clear that Cloud has enormous potential, but there are also hidden costs of Cloud computing and as was mention earlier, human rights defenders and NGOs are sometimes in very high risk situations.  You can multiply that by a hundred times by ‑‑ NGO happened to be.  It also gives great advantage to people in my risk situations.  You can securely store your information offsite.  I have colleagues of mine that had had have had their phones and computers seized.  It may have been secure when it was in their possession, but it is now in the hands ever authorities or other actors.  Data in the Cloud is safe from that kind of seizure.  There are, however, like I mentioned the hidden cost in Cloud computing.  Something that is sort of assumeed is that broad band is widely available.  Cloud services, they're designed by companies operating in usually rich countries with lot of connectivity.  They pre‑suppose high speed connections and for many people in developing world, that is not the case.  Most Africans are subject to data caps.  That would be so for people operating Internet cafes who are predominantly the poor is often expensive in broadband especially in rural areas.  So all these potentials of Cloud carry the existing social inequalitys due to development unevenness.  Is there are issues of dropped connections, packet loss and low latency.  They are endemic and they make using Cloud services difficult and unreliable.  They're the human rights defenders.  They are very skeptical in putting sensitive information and trusting it to third parties.  There is a question of how well is this information secured, under what circumstance would 10 surrendered to authorities and the other issues, of course, information stored online is always exposed.  If I keep information on a hard drive kiss connected from the [INAUDIBLE], a hacker cannot penetrate that no matter how skilled they are.  If they're in a service drop box, there is always a ring.  Of course, encryption is very strong.  You have great technology encryption, but I hesitate to be craft here.  There's a well known technique called rubber hose decryption.  You may piece that together.  The other issue with storing information in the Cloud is data redundancy.  You know?  A human rights defender, we want to be able to be assured when we delete information that it actually is erased.  If it's kept on a Cloud server, you might be kept in a couple different locations.  Knee may not ever have assurance that it is ever gone.  Examples of some of these problems or drop box just this year and major security flaws identified.  Hackers could very easily penetrate into your drop box network and have access to all the files stored there and drop box does not keep a record of when files are accessed or by who or where they're from.  And so, you wouldn't even be aware that all the files on there are open to the public.  So I want to talk about the solutions and best practices.  What Google has with the transparency report, that's very helpful telling you what they know, how it's accessed, when it's accessed and Gmail is a favorite of human rights defenders and NGOs because it is encrypted end to end.  The way that those two characters in Girl with the dragon Tattoo, it is done BuGmail.  When you use a service like that, all the ‑‑ all a watch dog can see that you log on to Gmail and that you're ‑‑ yeah.  Your colleague will log on to Gmail, but it should be noted that recently Gmail itself was hacked.  Even some of the northwest secure services are not that secure.  So, solutions we need to address the uneven development project.  You have high speed connectivity especially to rural areas.  That's where a lot of these services are most needed and we need to do this so we don't leave the poorest people behind.  We also need as was minutesd in the Google workshop on Cloud computing, transpatiencey around data requests.  We need to know the jurisdiction in which our dat is stored so wean the legal framework of how it is seasd and we outline policies around the data security and honesty about when data is compromised.  Finally, there are v for businesses.  There is a market nearby.  This is how a lost Cloud services are sigging to distinguish themselves and we think that's a very, very valuable service and that would really help in encourage further adoption.  Thank you.

>> Excellent.  Thanks.


Well, before I open it to the floor and I have a question for everyone and if anyone volup fears, fine.  Where do you think Africa today can play in Cloud computeing?  Any specific area where we can say it's safe.  Yes.  It can be done in this country or in this specific subject or this specific service, please go ahead, Robert.

>> ROBERT:  I will say two things.  In regards to freedom house did a report.  We didn't comfort whole thing, but we did cover Kenya and south Africa.  One of the things we have seen in the statements in the storiesna have been shared over the last few days at IGF is being able to find a technology and solutions that are appropriate for the content.  There's great innovation in this continent.  The amount of technology and innovation around mobile is incredible and I think Africa can create ‑‑ could work on finding appropriate cloud services that would be available on mobile.  I think yes, we have in many parts of the world great amount of bandwidth, but that's because we have it and we can use it.  If the platform here is mobile, then it's make sure the legal reggualer to environment allows for 3 and 4G and that's how it can get into the communities and it can be low cost.  So I think that would be a great potential.  The great fear, I think, is that, um, countries not be afraid.  It's going to require a lost education.  It's going to require a lot of best practices and given that it will be something new, I think it's also something that can be exportd to the rest of the world.  So business and society and others all have to coming to the to make it happen.  It's happened here in Kenya with other things and I think it's a great potential.  So I think that's where there can be some great innovation.  I know [INAUDIBLE] came out ever Kenya.  The same thing can be done for other types of services.

>> Yeah.  I concur.  I think there's an honest potential in the mobile telephoning for Cloud computing and unfortunately, having an extensive 3G, 4G network might be a little ahead of ourselves.  But perhaps one area would be to develop Cloud services that are designed less around having all the bells and whistles of functionality and more around working with low connectivity still being effective and for people who will be using phones instead of computers.

>> Thump.  I think I agree on two point.  The first one what Michael said about the focus for Africa should be on mobile broadband connectivity at least in Kennia, we have 3G.  We also have upcoming 4G with available areas in rural areas.  I think it will be for the delivery of the Cloud surface.  And then the second thing of the innovation I would like to see in Africa is in the area of services that are available in the Cloud because a lost the population is went rural areas.  I think we would need is have some focus particularly to give access to a government services through the Cloud.  Local authority services and even legal services and market services.  A lot of people in the rural areas.  For example, farmers would like ton where the markets are for their produce and other country services including where they can buy inputs and what cost.  Things like health services are very important to be available and services in the Cloud.  Whether information and transport services and another very important one is eLearning.  ELearning for school.  That's crucial.  That service will be available for Africa in the Cloud.

>> Thanks.  I would ‑‑ I think there's an enormous opportunity to also use these new applications for Cloud and the innovation that Kenya and Africa has shown it sometimes leads the way to also promote adoption ever broadband and as you develop healthcare and education‑type applications that.Ky be delivered over noble and you can develop scalable solutions that can start with very low bandwidth even our consumer e‑mails.  So there are a lost different variations in Cloud services.  At the same time as start to build your fiber infrastructure, you can take advantage of Cloud for E‑government.  We deliver very high security healthcare exchange information in Cloud on a Cloud architecture.  So there are many different variation of Cloud that can be used from, um, very innovative consumers and low cost consumer services to very secure, but very cost efficient high end Cloud services that can really help for E‑GOV where the government can help you be a leader in the adoption and that's what the U.S. is starting to do.

>> The need for the enablement environment, you know, policy, right?  Policy framework.  I think that's a huge potential as huge potential for Cloud computing because I believe when the policy for telecomand so everything is [INAUDIBLE].  We got to class services also from business.  I know that one government to come up with policy and, ah, and legislation for tax days and for protection of data and, ah, legal status of electronic everyday.  It is in a court law.  So things that can protect the business.  So I think it's the message for us in developing nation for government.  They need to make the right.  What do you is in some areas of the infrastructure like looking at that is good for several parts.  So, of course you offer a generator part economy.  Once the right policy framework is there, totally works.  You have a nerve Cloud infrastructure ready to place even from government perspective.  You have somebody in the government that is here.  You can intervene and they are doing it because I know about that public infrastructure.  The public infrastructure and the opportunities take much there.  Very soon we'll start mobile banking very soon.  You have mobile banking and the frame work is in place from the center bank in Nigeria.  Ever course, the solution began to rule out.  But businesses want to be able to do much more if we have the right environment.  And that is one point Ambassador made and that is very important for us to really [INAUDIBLE].  We've got to deploy Cloud services even in Africa and I believe the number of companies and they want to comment and invest.  Right?  Right?  So, we just need the right framework.  So that is it.  Thank you.

>> We heard a lot about mobile and the problem remains at least one I see is the issue of content and customization and things of that nature.  What can we do to push that through?  How could we go it faster?  Capacity building is a major issue.  How do we help with it?  How do we pursue it?

>> You know, I think one idea is we have seen with the mobile and with Cloud we have ownoivative developer to use this as a low cost way to enter the market.  I think one way that Africa could really spur this is to enable and open up these platforms to innovation.  I know companies like AT&T remember actively and we have an online developer program that anyone in the world with the new Nigerian ministry came up and asked about it.  These are opportunities that are not just ‑‑ they can be used to develop solutions that are innovative here and they can be used to really become part of the global market fees.  So I think that maybe way to both socialize what's hang, but also develop the customized content that is going to be most relevant to the icers.  Am.

>> we're going to move to questions.  I have one person.  Yeah.  Please go ahead.  First draw in the corner.

>> I work in my day job with a hoster, a data center hosting company in Egypt.  We're hosting many services and we're looking with a lot of service and I'm going to share what we found in not the research, but from our market is that we do have a local company that do have an opportunity in providing many things that are not provided by the major Cloud providers like look‑alike services using the local language and localized applications that dealt with the local [INAUDIBLE] to finance system in the Cloud.  I am most likely to follow the tailor one and follow rules and regulation rather than use one in amazon or Google aps.  The other thing is local support, which is another important thing most of the Cloud services available now depend a lot on companies in IT within companies have high level of expertise to set up the Cloud service and easy is to it and having local support, someone that you can pull in a local somebody and answer you in your own language is an edge.  Another thing is actually local availability if you are hosted.  What I'm talking about Cloud services that is developed on the major Cloud provider like amazon or Google aps, but that is hosted locally because then we have a chance to cut from our post to rather expensive international connectivity and access prices.  There is a channel, couple of challenges that we see.  First is competition from the big Cloud providers what we want to have is the Microsofts and the Googles and the Amazon is setting up local shops and asking local providers to a white label reseller, which is a challenge because it will leave us without developing the local resources and having that content and the infrastructure locally.  The second thing is actually availability with issues with cuts and power and in connectivity.  Thank you.

>> Thanks a lot.  Liz?

>> Yes.  We have a question from the remote participants and I think it might be related.  Um, it's from the carinnian telecommunications June and the comment to address any of the companies on the panel.  There should be a commitment from some of the larger global players to bring the infrastructure closer to the markets they serve in order to help develop the local and regional infrastructure and capacity in developing countries.

>> Thank you.  Anyone would like to take it?  Jeff?

>> JEFF:  Yes.  The best way to do that is allow the global companies that have global data needs to be able to easily transfer data to and from areas like Africa because then we'll be able to provision the infrastructure and that will follow.  So, I think I would take it back to one of ambecause door verveer is pointing to to do data flows is going to ‑‑ there may be an initial inclination that will lead to the infrastructure and it really is not that way because for quality of service and other reasons, you will distribute it and you will have the flexibility to allow that to happen.

>> If I might add a comment to the gentleman's first question.  Cloud is a deployment model.  It's not a location.  And Cloud interfaces are the same regardless where the services are hosted.  Isn't same as the Internet already works for us when you make a local request or a global request on the Internet you send e‑mail to someone and their server is in a dat center down the street or it's across an ocean.  Same protocols.  So the first building block in Cloud is the inner operable protocols for interfacing with the services.  The second part per earlier comments is having some confidence that the services are doing what you're actually asking them to do two.  Once you have that platform in placeifer confident interaction with Cloud services, then it's everyone's market to contribute the best content and the best services adapted to the particular needs.

>> Okay.  We have a question here and then there.  First here.  Please state your name, organization you're with and if you have a specific person you are asking the question or address the question to.

>> I don't have a question.  I have a comment.  The ‑‑ I want to react on a couple comments that were directed towards mobile phone bring connectivity to Africa and that way allowing Africans using Cloud service.  One thing is risk and I think it's quite a big risk that, um, particularly Internet used through mobile phones is very often to specific services.  If you buy an android phone, ah, you're already locked to ‑‑ your Internet users are already locked to about then Cloud services specific Cloud services.  So it means that both phone manufacturers as well as the operators very often provide Internet in such a way that it's not opening.  It's been specifically looked to specific services, which is really dangerous development there ABCes on perspective.  Google representative is going to speak after me.

>> Hello.  Just to give some an answer to the ABC question as well.  I think that also on top of what Jeff just mentioned that is very important on the development of free flow information and keep in mind the regulations in terms of privacy that needs to be adapt to the current realities of Internet.  I think that is a good practice and I think that Kenya is an example here is interconnection.  So, for sort of [INAUDIBLE] at the access points and putting intelligence of the Internet at ages.  It's time to put the content closer also to the users.  So, with using many ‑‑ many tools that, ah, has to get a better service in a whole way.  For example, use more local traffic better than international traffic to make the connections cheaper.  So, this I think is also ‑‑ Kenya has been doing great progress on this with their network access point.  Thank you.  In terms of your comment on android, we developed a platform and we lose control of what usually the manufacturers or the operators do with the operating system.  It's alternate benefits of having an open pat form is then you can program whether you want it to surprise.  For us, it would be great if it is as open as possible.

>> Robert?

>> ROBERT:  I did mention maybe one of the assumptions and that's going to your question.  I think interoperability you mentioned is key and I think everyone would agree with that.  I would also say going forward open standards and the standards actually stay in a format that it's accessible to everyone.  So innovators and entrepreneurs can actually build on what is publicly available and not standards where access to that information is incredibly expensive or not.  I really decentralize a link ability and I would say that the responsibility of the different stakeholders with IGF is about asky the have to enable environment and what do we need.  We need to make sure that the skills, the legal environment is there.  I would say the education and the companies and the government work together.  Initiatives that many governments have done to try to bring developers and different folks to try to build or create an entrepreneurial environment around technology and I think it's particularly important.  Some counted Reese have done that.  Others have not, but it's possible everywhere in the continent.

>> I have a question for ambassador verveer.  How do you feel go creating some possible Cloud computing centers of excellence in areas like Africa and other parts of the world and helping that type of activity go on?

>> PHILIP L. VERVEER:  My own personal view is is this.  If if fact we have an enable environment, we're going to see opportunities genuinely flourish in Africa and elsewhere around the world.  The reason for that is partly the inherent aspects of the Cloud that do make available to everyone at least [INAUDIBLE].  And also I think in a pretty competitive environment.  So price are more likely to be competitive make available to everyone.  State of the art computing capabilities.  This is ‑‑ signs to me to be the sort of thing that creates a virtuous cycle.  Now, inherent in the I. netted is trial wonderful, genuinely marvelous feature that it contributes enormously to collective learning and collective wisdom.  So the notion of centers on excellence having a geographic location may be something that's genuinely not necessary in this environment.  If we get fundamentals right, if we get the sort of rile of law right, if we are careful not to ‑‑ not to leave unnecessary obstacles in path of this, I genuinely think that we'll see basically everyone in the world in a position to share significantly in the kinds of opportunities of Cloud computeug providing us.

>> Okay.  My question:  What was in that regard, but the real reasons is the fact that capacity building and investigate expertise in different parts of the world hundred get the people the countries to the producers that are just consumers of the technology.  Let's see.  Please.

>> you have starting group.

>> There was policy framework on some of the presentations and I think apart from the U.S., I haven't seen a policy framework from other place, but I would like the panelists to enlighten us on that and I am particularly interested on the regulatory framework actually.  I'm sorry.  I was in a time just interested where the policy framework did just that.  The policy framework and I also mentioned that AA from one of the U.S. federal policy, I haven't seen much.  I would like the panelists to let whateverrist ands and in places that we do not reinvent wheel.  Whatever is possibly enough and mobile apse.  But the, in Africa.  So that is concretely what they hesitate to start computing business in Africa.

>> Okay.  I can mention real quick.In the European Commission has a Cloud proceeding underway and they're seeking ‑‑ they're seeking public comments and are looking to develop a strategy paper this fall.  And also the Asia Pacific economic cooperation apec has been working on, um, done a lot of work on a privacy framework for cross‑border dat transfers that, I think, is being driven by the desire to enable Cloud services that we're talking about and just two weeks ago rat feed a set of impledgation plan for that.  So we've seen a lot of progress being made there.

>> Jimson?

>> JIMSON OLUFUYE:  Maybe in addition to that, physically on say the policy ‑‑ they're also enabling Cloud activity.  In fact, as said earlier, when it comes to developing businesses, we just need the right environment as a, man, I just need the right environment to be able to put my money to invest.  With regard to after we started, the fact that's very good system.  I will encourage you to be ‑‑ I don't know if you're in the private sector or in the public sector.  Okay, yes.  You have a private sector.  You are joining the ICT association and with that, we would be able to give you more details.  In Nigeria, the President we have a lot of full room.  We have a lot of [INAUDIBLE] where we have events and we talk about workshops where we look at studies and now to get a number of businesses.  It's very easy to do.  In fact, Cloud computing is a business model for the platform for you to get rung.  Once you have the right skills and talking about the last question about set of excellence, I think it is relevant.  It's developing nation to view the capacity in terms of skills, Celt skills level.  In Nigeria, we have an institute called bridge institute on web development and on whatever.  So a number of colleagues or members also in training.  We do training.  So thank you for joining.  If there's none, please see me at the end so we can get something going.

>> Sure.  We just a response back from the telecommunications union.  I want to thank panelists for their response.  They should be mindful however that here in the Caribbean where there are very new ISPs and domestic traffic is being routed.  These allergy companies should play an advocacy role and should help the role by bringing those services closer to the markets and enhancing quality and service.  Et cetera.  Thank you.

>> Thank you.  I don't think ‑‑ any comment?  Sorry.  Please.

>> My name is Rena weeker.  I am working for OCn and also we're take studies on computing.  Um, I have to questions.  First one, you have to find mental requirements.  One was mentioning.  So you need connectivity.  The other requirement though is power, availability and Elength risity.  So I was wondering whether you and your African policy frameworks you deal with that issue.  How to power the mobile devices especially in rural areas because we see this can be an issue for Cloud computing.  My second questions relates to the development of Cloud infrastructure in Africa because it was mentioned several times.  Most of the Cloud providers are currently located in the U.S. or at least in the western hemisphere.  It would be much better for African country fist you have your platform located in Africa.  Is the private sector ‑‑ well, basically establishing data centers in that area.

>> Thanks a lot.  Waudo?

>> WAUDO SIGANGA:  Maybe just comment on the fast question about power being a necessary condition for availability in the rural areas.  I would rather think the preconditions for the Cloud to be available there is first just the access and then February 2, the broadband.  The issue is really reduced and mitigated when we now talk about mobile, mobile broad bad.

The reason is already we have a lot of people in Aprediction Abut really in Kenya, we have points that we're able to access the Internet at least through the 3 a G level.  They're use the service not just for Internet.  They're using it for SMS, et cetera.  So they already established ways of changing these ones to the extent that the power probably matches and to be taken as a problem.  They're central AIDS areas in the markets where you can charge your phone if necessary and also charging a phone is very easy compared to other access.  You can do that given the sort of energy.  So, from what I've seen particularly in our country here in Kenya, the element once you talk about mobile, broadband is really, really mitigated.

>> In addition, with the fact that processing is being taken off the telephones in general, it requires much less power.  They really concerned the power about locating some of the ‑‑ some of the centers in Africa instead of having it outside.

>> I think that's an excellent question.  I think that really we need to focus on the concept that Cloud providers will facility market if there is a market there.  Businesses will open up and local businesses tailor to local needs.  The real issue we need to address is the pricing mechanisms and high speed connection in rural Brazil costs five times more than in London.

You can't just have aires base with these kind of prohibitive costs.  The governments need to realize they're exponential gains.  And once infrastructure is there, businesses will naturally pop up to feed this demand that is appeared.

>> Dan, please.

>> DANIEL O'NEIL:  Dan O'Neal.  In terms of business following that market place but then don't we also need to have government provide a legal structure that is going to want, that is going to enable, to want to set up there and to be able to function successfully there.

>> Okay.  Just [INAUDIBLE] about 10 years ago, we said that telecombusiness would not strike and drive in Nigeria because of the challenge.  It seems to generate.  We record the generator supply.  But the government is taking this individual priority to insure a provision of part.  And 24/7.  It is a government agenda and once that is done, we'll be able to enable morenesses.  We'll have a policy framework and the environments.  Good environments and you will always find solutions.

>> Yeah.  I just wanted to mention there's two aspects of this and particularly in this one obviously the transponder towers for your wireless and charging your phones.  Um, the largest users of electricity in the northern Virginia area is next on, network operation centers.  You talk about Cloud computing.  And it's ‑‑ these centers are just absolute gobblers of electricity.  They drive the power companies wild.  They have to call them up and go off on these peek times.  I have to turn on these huge ‑‑ they've got four of them that will fill up this room with these diesel generators that come online.  Anyway, enormous requirements on electricity, cheap electricity to drive the centers of your Cloud computing and huge investments.  And they ‑‑ and you also ‑‑ you got go to one of these things.  I take trips to these things all the time.  And the ‑‑ it's ‑‑ it's also because you have to have all this security and redundancy.  It's ‑‑ you go into one and there's $200 million worth and you realize there's like three other pods over here and they're all just rung like mad because if one you can't go down for one millisecond.  It's a huge investment, huge amount of power and that's why they're all sitting where they're sitting.  So I don't want anybody to think this is ‑‑ it's serious commitment, serious money, serious ‑‑ so anyway ‑‑

>> Feel to Robert and then Jeff and since you only have five minutes left, if there are no order questions, I will leave it to the panelists to each one of you to make a comment if any or statement before we close for the evening. Robert?

>> ROBERT:  Some of the Cloud provide Ewill either try to miniaturize the Cloud services or publish how they reduce power usage and also to be green as well too.  They consume energy, but they consume and create all sorts of things.  I think that is something that maybe at a, um, existing Cloud providers could work together maybe encourage by certain jurisdictions that are keen to do that and I think it would be helpful.  I think that is something that Africa not necessarily can innovate on, but innovation abroad and bring them here and seeing it.  But power as you were mentioning not just is going to be a huge issue and maybe a more decentralized model that doesn't necessarily require one NOC, but maybe something that will allow for several NOCs that are together to have some sort of redundancy would be good.  Maybe it's a model that doesn't exist yet and maybe something that can be created.  To pick up on that point, Cloud computing is very energy efficient compared.  If we assume that data storage and transfers are going through the roof anyway, Cloud computing is a much more official way of doing it because instead of five companies having utilized data storage at 40%, you can efficiently do that on a shared architecture.  The other point is it's much more flexible for dealing with power issues because you can have redundancy and if you have to turn off some centers or you have problems, you can easily shift and have the dat somewhere else.  Maybe there are unique architectural considerations and they would be able to harness some of the flexibility of Cloud.  And reallocate them on a regular basis.  There are a lot of unique issues that may be a very appropriate solution.

>> Everyone will have access to this resource.  You need to make sure that access much is more distributed.  Make sure that it isn't something limited to very small.  So leaving a lot of people behind by adopting Cloud.

>> There is a discussion earlier about centers of excellence.  Let me offer a different phrase for that network of excellence.  Connecting people together we do find benefit in being in the same room or the same facility sometimes, but we take what we've learned here and bring it into our allergy network and isn't the cloud the same way.  You can have huge centers as the commenter just indicate.  You can have distribute net works of smaller centers and the ability to move back and forth which all seems so forth.  Africa is in a unique position to sun rise in the Clouds.

>> Know actually, admitting Cloud computing successful in developing world particularly in Africa actually is a two‑way traffic solution from the business and the government.  I think it's too small because of the policy.  And the business community will also engage on the oppositions and have to evolve and involving focus and awareness creation and, ah, promoting this brilliant business model that will create more women, create more opportunity, bridge in win‑win solution for us.  It is agreed bottom line.  And also the parliament Aryans have to come in because they have to be involving the legislation.  So awareness, business and you also take it to the parliament in Africa and find a way of connecting the parliament Aryans and engaging in the subject matter w, that I believe for Cloud base is successful and we'd be able to obtaint vision 2015 target.  Not too much more beyond that.  I believe business statistics are available.  Internet penetration in Africa is about 5.9% and in Nigeria, it's about 30%.  So, when it was first 0 to 30%.  So I think we try policy.  We can really make it successful.

>> Okay.  As I said inven news, the issues about Cloud is our responsibility in Africa.  You have to define the strategy of the stakeholders involving private sector, government, civil society to help the rights in Cloud like an Internet rights and principal.  That's to build the confidence for Cloud in Africa.  So, ah, an open network of individuals organization can work to ensue that the Cloud operates in ways that fulfill rights like accessibility, equal and [INAUDIBLE] access, and all that.  And the network of individuals and organization have to develop a specific strategy.  Africa strategy for the use of Cloud.  Define the lookout policy and regulatory framework.  The implementation, monitory and the defined strategy and address the issue of our capacity for the user.

>> To drop, I would like to of say that in my view for Africa to really be developing.Ing to be successful in the Cloud computing environment, we need to focus on two main things.  The first thing is is the access should be mobile broadband.  We really need to focus on that and with broadband mobile you have advantages of cheaper costs.  It's much cheaper for the people to access because they already have mobile phones that are already cheaper than computers.  If you have access, they will be computers and it is more expensive.  The mobile phones also do not require to use [INAUDIBLE] software.  The colleagues here are talking about the operating systems and we don't need to have property.  They have operating costs for the icers.  Most computers require that.  The mobile phones also move around with them because in Africa, in most areas, people don't sit in one location like in an office.  They are moving around doing their daily tasks.  That's a best analogy for success.  Also, they do not request specialized training.  People know how to use them because they have been using them there are other functionalitys.  It is very focused and the access to be there in the areas.  The second thing is we need to focus on content.  There is a little talk here about maybe trying to bring some of the infrastructure here closer to the people and this kind of thing.  But in my own view, I think we can get the best out of Cloud computing concentrating on developing irrelevant content for people trying to do something.  They can have economies of scale and even the comparative advantage.  As long as we have the connectivity through the fiberoptic and the land of fiberoptic went country I think is important on developing the contempt that can drive the demand for the Cloud services went countries.

>> Thank you.

>> PHILIP L. VERVEER:  The creation of wealth for broader and cultural contributions is enormous and it's very important that we not lose opportunities to ‑‑ to appropriate those kinds of gains.  The one thing I'll offer is this.  One of the things we are doing in the United States as I mentioned is we are take advantage of the government as customer to try to advance the technologies both in terms of providing business for Cloud producers, but also in terms of providing an example for everyone in our society.  I think the use of the governments procurement activities have to be carefully considered to try to advance this business model.

>> I won't repeat with a lot that has been said.  I will maybe repeat something I said from the start.  There are perhaps particular groups, but I would say some businesses that we're ‑‑ if the Cloud services were in the region and they may not be at a level of security and privacy that's required.  And, um, having options is particularly important.  And being age to still have choice just like the issues with ccTLDs and countries wanting to restrict that.  I think choice should always be important and I think education is going to play a key role for businesses to know how to choose between the different providers, what the value ad ising going to be for the regional and national ones and innovation is key as well.

>> Thank you.  A lot has been said.  I would reiterate important of infrastructure.  I do think Cloud is scalable and you can have mobile, broadband be a great facilitator, but usage is going through the roof and the amount of capacity just from the usage, you need that infrastructure.  Second on the frust framework and the issues of the privacy and security, I would just point out that it needs to be flex age because you don't want to take away choice in trying to insure privacy and security and I think the low medium and high types of data, that's something that  even as a consumer, we have to think about.  There are times when a free service is exactly what you want and there are times when you need to be careful.  And secure your important personal information.  So this has to be part protections and in agreements there and part consumer education on being able to make a decision.  Small, medium business the same way.  And then finally the opening up markets for innovation and allowing the full potential to be reached.  I think that was a very good theme that we touched on today.

>> Thanks, everyone.  I will take more time with everybody.  I appreciate everybody being here.  Thanks for having us here.  Thanks, Dan, and thanks, everybody, who participated remotely.  Have a nice evening.  Thank you.