Strengthening ccTLD's in East Africa'- Interrogating the Research Findings Kenya Network Information Centre (KeNIC)

27 September 2011 - A Workshop on Critical Internet Resources in Nairobi, Kenya

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September 27, 2011 - 09:00am


The following is the output of the real-time captioning taken during the Sixth Meeting of the IGF, in Nairobi, Kenya. Although it is largely accurate, in some cases it may be incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. It is posted as an aid to understanding the proceedings at the session, but should not be treated as an authoritative record. 


>> Good morning.  Good morning, everybody.

>> Good morning.

>> Thank you very, very much for turning up for this very, very important event.  It's very, very exciting to get some resorts based on evidence, based on the facts on our east African environment on the ccTLDs.  I'm also very excited about stand ups because when I look at presence of this, it is a wealth of experience from Africa, from outside of Africa and we are going to use all this to strengthen and to see what else we need to do to make our case for ccTLDs east Africa.  So this session will be very straight forward.  We have a document carried out last year and part of this year.  We'll get a feel of the findings of that research and then the way forward.  And then after that, we'll have an opportunity to interrogate via the process, via the findings and via the web, but that interrogation is to give some inputs that will make, ah, the report even much more polished and help and whatever you say is a contribution to ones making ccTLDs in our region, east Africa and by extension the role of Africa stronger and be able to position them south of our Africa brothers and sisters.  So welcome to this session.

Now, to move forward, I will ask for a quick introduction so that we know each other because we are not many, but very important people.  My name is Muriuki.  I work in the ‑‑ brought Internet to this country.  The first link, we'll talk about that and we'll see Kenya was connected.  That was 10 years ago.  Today, we are very far, but we still have challenges.  We want to make sure we are mainstream and put in search of our economic development and I am excited to be part of that process.  I am excited to see some of my friends from here.  So we'll start from you and ask you quick introduction.

>> My name is Keith Davidson from New Zealand.  I am associated with ccTLD and have interest in the Pacific islands.  The ccTLD organization and CC counselor and coach here of ISOCs and advisory council.

>> MURIUKI:  That's the sort of excitement we're looking for.  Thanks.

>> I come from Madagascar and I am the president of the EKMG and ccTLD.

>> Hello.  My name is Ramon.  I am also member of TLD.  Thank you.

>> I am from Kenya.  I am the chief executive officer of limited Kenya.  Thank you.

>> My name is David Wambua registered for Kenya.  Thank you.

>> I ask you to please come so that you can use the [INAUDIBLE] (no sound)

>> Hello, everybody.

>> My name is Andrew Mac.  I run a specialty consulting firm called AM Global.  We work with companies and reagents that are interested in doing emerging markets.  This is, I think, my 14th time in Kenya.  So, um, I'm a veteran of 34 countries on the African continent.  So very, very interested in seeing how ‑‑ how progress on the CC world is moving forward.  Thank you.

>> MURIUKI:  Thank you very much.  The last time we discussed this topic, we discussed it with [INAUDIBLE].

>> I am the manager of Tanzania information center.  I am also a member of the TTLD.

>> Good morning.  I am Vince Surf.  I am Google's chief Internet evangelist and former president of the Internet Society.  And co‑inventor of the internet.  So I am very much excited to be here.  I am eager to learn more about the situation in east Africa with regard to ccTLD support and like many of you, eager to see the Internet serve your needs and to grow the GDP in all countries here.

>> Now, that's what I see and I am very excited to be in this session.  I don't think he needs any introduction.  Jessie is the current father of the internet.

>> Thank you.

>> I am proud to be next to him.

>> My name is Paul Museeh from the information center.

>> Paul, because they're the ones that draw for this agenda, of course KeNIC.

>> I am the lead researcher of this study.

>> Thank you.  We are introducing ourselves.  Please introduce yourself.

>> I am from China.  IT from [INAUDIBLE] information technology.

>> MURIUKI:  Thank you.

>> Hello.  We are going to be the remote participation moderators.

>> MURIUKI:  Thank you very much and now we know each other and we can go straight to business.  This is one carried out and a document is prepared and it's been distributed to all of you.  So, I want to know who, ah, has been having a document entitled, strengthens ccTLDs in Africa to what is evidence based best practice from east Africa.  If ‑‑

>> I have many versions of this one.

>> MURIUKI:  No.  That's a long one.  I can share this one.  Okay.  Do you have ‑‑ so, we have one on one ten minutes left and we will make use of that time.  The first thing is I will ask our ICTs in the region.  Who was the inspiration behind this study to why she thinks it was necessary, why was it carried out and what is TC going forward on such, ah, environment allowed us on ICT ccTLDs south Africa.  Alice, you have the floor.

>> Alice:  Thank you.  I am very pleased to be presenting this research fundings.  I think we are nearing the end beginning to disseminate the research findings.  But a little background to it.  Kenya led and convened the fast east African IGF approach.  And which involved bringing together vast representatives from Kenya, Uganda, and Burundi.  The east African IGF both at national level and regional level identified several critical issues that ‑‑ very unique to the east African region.  And one of them was the, you know, the acknowledgement or the recognition that the region ccTLDs were rather weak in terms of competitiveness, management, skills and capacity.  And so, we felt that we've always felt the model is actually, you know, felt the impact of it is felt at the local level and we prefer that we needed something concrete, having a concrete outcome.  We decide rather than the usual dialogue that we take one of the issues every year and take it to not necessarily a conclusive end, but developed a policy advocacy strategy that would deal with one nation and the one that we picked was a critical internet resource.  It strengthens ccTLDs in east Africa.  So we embarked on it and decided to use the lense.  Instead of using the lense of consumer protection, best practice models for delegation and management because you realize two countries one in Uganda and the ccTLDs were still held by individuals and the Ugandan one was a Ugandan individual where it was based in Switzerland.  And by then, most of the African countries realized the ccTLD countries are important to the economy of the countries.  So others are keen to see the ccTLDs being delegated.  And we use a lense of consumer protection and, of course, the delegation and cyber crime and also easy is to Internet.  The study itself is descriptive in nature.

>> Are we able to ask questions along the way or do you want us to hold questions?

>> Let's hold the questions because she's going to give you the context, then you'll have the findings and then you'll ask questions from there.  Please proceed.

>> Thank you.  Um, it's descriptive in nature was conducted in the five east African countries, Kenya, Uganda, Burundi and Rwanda.  We believe it will benefit policy making processes and also contribute to, um, to research and knowledge after the east African level.  Now, what are the objectives?  The fast one was to identify the trends and management of ccTLDs generally in the east African region.  And then to highlight, ah, consumer issues, ah, highlight access of the issues relating to access to road by the Internet.  Identify cyber crime in order to be affected to ccTLDs, exploring best practice and read delegation best practice.  Identifying a criteria for good governance, identifying ongoing policy and regulatory issues that are faced by ccTLDs and also highlighting consumer issues that relate to ccTLDs.  Now, the strategy used as I mentioned conducted in the finest African country was a 3‑stage process.  We first with the literature review and then collected data both primary and secondary and then validated the findings during the east ‑‑ national IGF and Kenya, east African IGF Rwanda and now we're beginning to disseminate some of the findings so that we can improve on the study.  In the sampling, it was segmented within the stakeholder community and included the five ccTLD registries and the regulatory, ISPs and consumers and we used structured questionnaires for each stakeholder group to collect primary data.  I think I will stop there at the objectives and then I think I will hand it over to MURIUKI.

>> Thanks.  I liked that vision you H I like the inspiration.  I like all you're look at.  We should be where we and are it is [INAUDIBLE] for us to move forward.  What is the finding of that?  I will ask Paul to tell us what is the finding and what are the accommodations.

>> PAUL MUSEEH:  These are the findings from the research and they are paragraphs in several classes.  The first findings from the research is contested redelegations lead to much [INAUDIBLE] governance models.  For example, [INAUDIBLE] the private sector coming together to form the governance moss for that ccTLD.  Governments play a very key role in the ccTLD oversight and it was found that role should be limited to that of equal partner.  There is communications of Kenya.  They see themselves as the facilitators of the process and delegators of the ccTLDs and finding number 4, it is that most ccTLDs receive most support from the stakeholders which are the government, the private sector and the society groups.  Also number ‑‑


>> PAUL MUSEEH:  Finding number 4, it's the model ccTLD.  They receive things first stakeholders.  Yes.  And finding number 5, it was 1/3 capacity building including the ccTLD operators were identified as the essential but effective and operation of the ccTLD.  The finding number 6 it was also found that local identity of the ccTLDs and put out to consumers and it was most of it should be done to awareness of the ccTLD in the national markets to make use of the ccTLD in doing business.  They're finding number 7 is suggested that responses suggest that site by security is a very critical issue and one of the growing problems is not well understood by stakeholders and is a prime target for capacity building.  And the last finding it was found that regional and international Internet governance organizations, they're the key role to play in capacity bombing and that includes both in Kenya of the Kenya IGF and the regional east African and also the international and the IGF, you and IGF.  I also present to you the recommendations which were put forward from this research.  This is the way forward.  And one of them was to strengthen the incorporations including implementation and using the networks for ‑‑ another recommendation is to strengthen the business operations and governance and the strategies will be established in local control of the ccTLD to a clear governance model which would save the mostly recommended [INAUDIBLE] model.  And another recommendation was this strength and process should go way beyond just providing efficient and technical [INAUDIBLE] for the domain name and it must get involved in education creation to the local community and also begin to provide critical starting points for online social economic around political activity.  It was also recommended that ccTLDs are not just constituents.  They should have an impact on internet development of a country.  They should act as a broker between the national political, social and economic incisions and international local governments and the policies taking place.  And there is the last one.  It's that our recommendation at 2010 east Africa IGF which was to form like a working group to form the EFC original top level domain for east African community in corporation with 5 ccTLDs in South Africa.  Thank you.

>> Thank you very much, Paul, for that finding, key findings of the study and also what we do with the findings.  Paul has come very creative on what could be done.  Can I see strength in business, strength in this and so somebody must be prepared to lower up the shot sleeves and say yes.  Based on these recommendation, we are going to do this implement them about a view of getting what you are looking for.  Strengthen in the ccTLD in our respective country.  Now, this falls on who are missing the ccTLDs in the region and one of them is here with us.  ABIBU, I would like to you tell us about that.  What are the issues that ‑‑ what are the things that you see?  How will be able to match the resources?  You're talking about political resources?  You're talking about financial resources and even the good will of the society to be able to realize and to implement those accommodations.  Luckily, we have participants here and you can also sort some of the issues to the floor and I'm very certain you will be able to get some less responses.  Let's hear from somebody who is directly impacted by these recommendations.  ABIBU?

>> ABIBU:  I will try to be brief.  So what has been summarized is basically inputs we give them, but to me, we are talking of strengthening, making something strong and this basically starts it from the foundation.  If you have a strong foundation, then you kind ever strengthen something on a weak foundation.  So the critical thing, the good foundation and the foundation starts with the governance of the governance model of the registry.  And fortunately, they're about to find governance models of the registry.  It can be part of the government or the registry can be part of the academia or the registry can be independent but externally controlled.  The registry can be independent but self‑regulated or the registry can be outsourced.  What this governance models, they are not unique they can be applied in every country.  This depends on this accounts get and they have advantages and disadvantages.  So, it is a matter of the specific country to lay out which governance model sweeps the environments of the specific country.  But mathematically, you can put it as the governance is a function of like [INAUDIBLE] and the legal ‑‑ regulatory and legal framework.  Now, from the experience in Tanzania, the way it was done, it was started way back in 2005 after the well examined information on society.  The government throughout regulator shared the discussion on how that can be managed.  So, out of this discussion, a research was formed on the best governance.  And the outcome of it we came up with independent self‑regulated model.  So, automatic TzNIC and this committee involves all stakeholders.  Again, in terms of challenges, there are two types of challenges.  One is on the technical side.  The other is the operational side, which attacks issues of publicity to the community.  Most people do use the internet, but the ccTLD and past the DNS.  So, um, I was speaking to the Google guy here about the challenges I have at moment.  Technically, I am okay.  I do have a number of secondary services for the TzNIC registry, but the take up is really small.  Whenever I attend meeting, people ask me where do I get a free e‑mail or a TzNIC.  It is easy for me for companies and entities to have a public account with TzNIC.  So my challenge here is the check up, but people are not aware on the benefits of the TLD itself.  We understand the registered operator they are critical Internet infrastructure, but no more user is not an issue.  So technically, ah, TzNIC was successive through the membership associations like FTLD because we ‑‑ we're building capacity through FTLD and this FTLD has relationships with the ICANN and so in terms of technical capacity, when you are starting it is really a challenge, but once you are through with it, you keep on improving, but the local Internet community is a big challenge.  Thank you.

>> MURIUKI:  Thank you.  Thank you.  We hear from the person who is going to implement this, the challenge that it forces, but I think it is also a call for all of us.  How can we be able to support him and the other managers, other administrators of ccTLDs to overcome those challenges.  As we go on, I would like to get a birds eye view how we have come along in the evolution of the Internet from the day there was no Internet and how we have critical structure and those that are successful and what are the rest of those that we have learned and how can we use that for Africa and for that, I want to ask the grandfather of the Internet just to tell us from a birds eye view.  You have seen the child grow from minus or from 0 to where we're now.

>> So, how much time do we have?  I have 40 years of history.  Let me just begin first of all by saying I am a little bit surprised at the scope of expectation that you illustrated for the ccTLDs.  The description here is ‑‑ what's upon the ccTLDs almost all the burden of developing the use of Internet in country.  And I'm surprised at that because the ccTLDs perform a very important infrastructure role, but other parts of the Internet environment seem important to developing the use of Internet, the Internet service providers, for example, at least for the parts of the world undertake to offer services in addition to basic connectivity.  The ISPs often offer e‑mail services.  They often offer other kinds of applications hosting for example.  So, it seems to me, first of all, that the ccTLD operators should not bear the entire burden of developing interest in and use of Internet in country, but they should be joined by others who have the same interest, which is to grow the use of this system.  So, I would like to hear some explanation of why other ISPs haven't also been expected to participate in that.  I'm going to pause now because you want to say something and then we'll come book the dialogue again, if that's okay.  Sir?

>> Ah, well, I will talk from my experience.  Yeah.  We do have relationships with ISPs for the kids of Tanzania because we have two members.  The public sector and the private 60or.

The private sector is represented by Internet service providers association.  The challenge we have in terms of the support from the ISBs for recent registry services for those that are accredited is not their copy business.  That is challenge.  Okay?  So, registry services is not their copies.  So in terms of marketing, we have very little marketing from the ISP.  Another challenge is that these operators sometimes or most of the time neigh do also facilitate the registration of this generic and domain names.  And so the pricing issues is a challenge.  Sometimes what do we do for the case of Tanzania?  We [INAUDIBLE] our applies list, but this price list does not involve the issues of hosting.  So, when it comes to an end user, the register and he goes to the ISP, basically the package he gets is something which is higher than the normal price we give and this is inclusive over registration and renewal fee and whatever.  And they don't [INAUDIBLE] this registration fee.  This is a renewal fee and this is hosting.  So, at the end of the day, you find our prices that seem to be high while they are not.

>> Let's keep going, Mr. Chairman.  First thought that comes to mind is that people have to have a reason for registering a second level or third level domain name.  The Tanzania structure like ED or ‑‑ okay.  In some jurisdictions, some have been registered to have domain names which is they bind to e‑mail services.  It seems to me that unless there are opportunities for users to associate themselves personally with a domain name, you won't see very much action at registry side.  The ISPs have to have facilities, hosting facilities and other applications that are appealing to individual users or again there won't be much interest in using domain names for personal identification.  This feels to me like there is in fact a mutual interest between the ISPs and the ccTLDs.  If the ISPs want more customers, ah, to come to them to use broader range of services and also use the domain name system for their purposes, it feels to me as if there should be some mutual marketing going on between the ISPs and the ccTLD operator.  A sense in your comments a great concern for income in order to support and sustain the operation of the ccTLD registry and I completely agree and understand that if it's not sustainable, then it can't be reliable.  So, once again, we come back to this question inventing reasons for registration in the domain name and that's just inventing applications that take advantage of having a personal registration or a corporate registration.  The next thing I would observe is that there is a strong correlation in the strength of Internet operation in country and the amount of local content that's available.  There's a paper that, um, Yanis Cart is offering in one of the sessions later today.  I think maybe even in this room, which talks about the correlation between the strengths of the Internet business in country and the rate of growth of local content.  This makes a great deal of sense to me because people come to the Internet for useful information and often information that is of local interest that is national or more geographically confined is the information they're looking for.  So I'm concerned as I look at the listed issues that are in this summary document that the ccTLD operation has been burdened with expectations that it can't reasonably fulfill without the cooperation of other parts of the Internet apparatus.  So, let me stop there, Mr. Chairman, I think we have other people who want to comment.

>> Thank you very much, Vince, for those comments.  I would like to open the floor to comments.  Let's be guided bite thrusts of the study with a view of improving it and a view of adding comments.  I know you have a lot of expertise, but let's see how we bring the expertise in the context of supporting ccTLDs in Africa.  Welcome.

>> Thank you very much.  I think the findings of the study are very interest indeed.  A few that are notable that struck me as a business man in a very positive way.  You look at one of the big challenges around Africa generally has been the role of government.  What is the approach roll of government, and one of the things if you look around in a past life, I worked at the world bank and we any studies in looking at the role of government.  What we found is the countries where government was a huge percentage of the ‑‑ of the national economy, that in fact those countries were generally poor.  Right?  So what you're recommending in terms of the role of the multi‑stakeholder system and especially the roll of business I think is right on and I highly encourage you from what we've seen.  There are ‑‑ one of the things that could have [INAUDIBLE] is what is the business model and what is the brand that the original CC is going to be pushing forward.  And I think that is one of the things that is a very big challenge.  There are questions in the public mind about the reliability and the stability of the local enterprise.  In some instances for not such good reasons, but I think part of this is about establishing a brand for the local ccTLDs and I would argue a brand as much as possible connected to business and growing business.  When we're talking about the best development promise around, they are in fact around getting people jobs.  I know that there's tremendous expectation around ICT for job creation.  And so I think that there is a role that the CCs can play and I hope they will have a chance to talk and dive into that because I think that's a way that the private sector can be really helpful to your task.  Thank you.

>> Thank you, Andrew.  That is hard‑core business and you have seen very good recommendation.  We must brand it.  Any other comment?  Oh, yes.

>> Thank you.  Keith Davidson.  I think I'm [INAUDIBLE] to oppose the issue that was arriving in my mind quite strongly and that was the individual that there seemed to be through this idea of the ccTLDs of having a massive task to, you know, outreach the Internet and get more people online and so on.  And whether that's an appropriate role for ccTLDs I feel quite strongly about that because I do have quite a strict requirement on them to obey their rules and 1591 and what the limitations and extent of the obligations of the ccTLD are.  So I think freeing them up to do the job is great.  [INAUDIBLE] with them too much may cost you the opportunity for the growth they might otherwise have been able to explore.  I was really interested in the, um, discussing about the original redelegations and, um, the discussion that the original ccTLD holders were individuals and somehow the hint was that it was somehow inappropriate.  And I wonder if we could explore?  A bit more detail exactly why there was a felt to be a need to do the redelegation and was it done with the individuals to try and create the sort of ccTLD that you want wanted and willing to go with a plan.  I also just asked the study is obviously in its quite early days if there's any statistical evidence this has been a success in terms of growth of ccTLD registrations or those sorts of things.  There is some evidence that the model has been generally utilized is working well and robustly.  Thank you.

>> Thank you, Keith.  We interviewed ourselves before you came in.  So we'll [INAUDIBLE] by asking you to introduce yourself and then you can proceed.

>> Hello and apologies for beg late this session.  I was caught up in the queues.  My name is Emily Tailor.  I'm a member of the Mac.  I've worked in the ccTLD environment for the last 12 years.  Apologies again for missing the early part of the presentation because this is a subject of great interest to me.  So some of the comments that I make may contradict or conflict with what's presented.  I hope you will bear with me on that.  I think that as Vince said, there is a very complex Eco system in establishing the Internet in a country.  It's about the infrastructure.  It's about local language content.  I'm also interested in the UNESCO studdie and their findings.  Just something as simple as location of servers locally has an enormous impact in the country and my experience of ccTLDs is that they tend to have an effective service and almost to rely on the community to pull the domain names out of them if you like rather than to be pushing a brand.  And that's probably why, um, it might be a struggle in some countries that the way ‑‑ as, I think, basic barriers to access them to overcome tremendously exciting progression in the last five years.  The mobile Internet in Africa as more and more mobile users become Internet enabled and the growth, I think of local language content.  Then it b worth people getting their own domain name and it becomes worth registering and that so I think, um, that that is an important thing.  Don't be too hard.  Don't have too high expectations of creating a vibe rapt ccTLD with the absence of all of those other elements that were built up a healthy Internet in country would be my suggestion.

>> MURIUKI:  Thank you.  Welcome.  Welcome.  We also have managers or ccTLDs in other countries.  Can we get some experiences?  Use value content, experience issues only, redelegation, statistics that could be used to ‑‑ some statistics that could be used to justify whatever model.  The floor is yours.  Alice?

>> Alice:  Thank you.  The issue regarding correlation between, um, you know, um, the strength of Internet business and local content is one of the first issues we found out or the study fines out.  I think you have a snap shot.  The full report actually recognizes the ATU and other research findings that have been conducted regarding the Kenyan ccTLD that given point and penetration in the lack of e‑Commerce.  You know, the content ccTLDDs are likely to have very low usage.  We're not placing that expectation.  Perhaps the presentation of the findings want it properly done.  Now wearing my hat as the chair of the Kenyan ccTLD KeNIC, one of the things we found out very specifically is we cannot burden KeNIC, for example, to go out and directly do the marketing, you know, and public relations to encourage more domain names.  What we've done, one of the strategies within our own strategic plan and to partner with the governor and the private sector in their efforts towards increase access.  That's the only way that we're able to bring in the issue of increased domain names and one of the ‑‑ I think one of the studies that have been partnered in with Google at the Kenyan levels.  One of the activities with the ccTLD manager can explain as well as with schools.  The Kenya education network and insuring that with the government as well with the new open data services and develop into local content and encouraging the registration of domain.  I think we have been very careful and Tanzania has given its own experience, but at the Kenyan level, we do not expect any direct marketing or public relation.  The strategic idea is to partner with all the other institutions.  Now, regarding redelegation, I think it's within the context of the packed that most countries, especially there's a growth of Internet stakeholders, individual users, you know, the government using E‑government services and I think it's that realization.  Call it both political, social and economic that people feel a need to, you know, to redelegate.  I can see hands raising and my colleague from Tanzania smiling.  And for Kenya, for example, it was more the realization again because most of us sitting at that table were part of the redelegation process.  What prompted us to do it?  It was, you know, we thought it needed to be owned within the [INAUDIBLE] code model in the Internet steak holders that needed to be part of that ownership.  When you look at structure, the government structure of KeNIC, we've got industry, representative government, representative civil society that actually impacts and influences the direction that KeNIC by, you know, by having representation at the levels.  Decision are made using the same bottom‑up process holder.  They're currently developing their own solution at national level in a process because we're beginning to get a few more disputes of a domain name registration.  So that's how we felt it needed to be government.  We actually felt as a country the Internet stakeholders all felt that KeNIC needed to be [INAUDIBLE] and it's coming from that background and I'm giving Kenya as, you know, as the example that I'm very familiar with.  Thank you.

>> Thank you very much.  Let's hear from Kenya, the manager to tell us.

>> Thank you.  One of the issues we have actually identified some critical success factors now to really move from the pool rather than what you're trying to pull.  And going into mobile push and some of the issues that we have identified to enhance the capacity as well as registers.  They seem to work directly with the end user.  We have decided to built the capacity of registers and one of the things we do to trim them.  And some of the areas that you're trying to train them on is automation of the systems especially on the building the capacity on sales.  We're also training them on DSSec.  We're talking more about the dot KE registry and what a value that we are adding in terms of ‑‑ as opposed to the other GTLDs.  We are trying to create that awareness in terms of value the dot KE domain.  We're also conducting forums.  Whenever the new policy, we come together and discuss them through the malty stakeholders that's been discuss and the just to mention, just give the feedback on whether this model is work.  The [INAUDIBLE] you have on this presentation is the domain name registrations, but now we're actually 18,000 going to 19,000.  So it means it is work.  There are still the a lot more that needs to be done and, ah, on the critical success factor that we identified is to improve customer service to registers and end users.  So we give them customer support.  We enhance relationships went registers.  Of course, that direction with [INAUDIBLE] AGH but also regularly during operational period.  We also get feedback from them to insure that we enhance the value of what we offer.  So we're conducting satisfaction to get that feedback to know exactly what it is that we need to improve O. but the most critical thing that we are doing is strategic partnerships that we mentioned.  This has worked very L. our approach is to use both the public on the private sector strategic partnerships and one of the bigger partnerships you have with Google.  This partnerships, of course we want to leverage on the trends of partners and use our own strengths to insure the end user benefits in terms of one end user education and understanding exactly what it is and also building the capacity of our ‑‑ of our registers.  The other thing like my colleague mentioned is partnerships we have with ICANN and the rest so that what my colleague mentioned is training and that capacity building for the registry.  I think those are areas that you are insures that we are able to reach out to more registrations.  Thank you.

>> Thank you very much.  Now, I do recognize that at one point mentioned about an issue you had [INAUDIBLE] to hold capabilities area.

>> So, I think I'd like to draw attention to two things.  First off, we think mobiles are an important access method to get to Internet‑base the information.  What we learned as Google is the kind ever information that people look for through their mobiles is not the same as the kind of information they look for from laptops and note books and things like that.  The information they look for with mobiles tends to be geographically localized.  Often, they are looking at manslaughter.  Where am I and how die get to a particular place.  They may be looking for products that are geographically locally availability the term local content sometimes is interpreted to mean content in a local language, but in the world we live in by advertising at Google, content means something that is geographically local.  I don't think that the ccTLDs, ah, which are really key parts of infrastructure can necessarily drive demand for domain names.  They have to be prepared to respond to demand, but the real demand comes from the value that's added by having a domain name that does something for you.  And the rest of the Internet Eco system has to drive that.  So, when you have more companies that want to be visible and want to be associated with the ccTLD because they want to serve a local population.  Then they're driven to register and have presence in the ccTLD.  So, ah, again, I have to say the term Eco system is very well taken because this is a business activity that involves a lot of different parties.  No one party can be responsible for creating the demand.  It is reality aggregate of the different stakeholders that create demand for Internet‑based services.  The last thing I want to emphasize is that all the statistics I've seen show that when there is local information and this is to say information about products and services that are available in country and geographically locally that you see in uptake in demand for registration and presence in the domain name system.  So, we have to exercise that mechanism in order to improve the condition of the ccTLD operation.

>> Thank you, Vince, for those comments.  Now, I would like it ask Abibu to give us the next experience.

>> Well, I wanted to add where [INAUDIBLE] ended on building capacity and also the issue of the challenges, technical and publicity or marketing.  As most of you agree, the registry has in terms of marketing is a [INAUDIBLE] jump.  But for the guest of Tanzania, I presented the issue that the ISPs and all their credited registers, registry servicers are not [INAUDIBLE] and they lead to marketing and publicity is domain names, but these can be facilitated from the issue providing them incentives so they can compete.  And they start to slowly marketing and the registry services.  When I talked about the domain take up, I was not saying that it is very little, but the population we have.  For instance, initially we had about 6,000 domain names.  By then, it went through the registers who are doing it involuntarily and the domains where they had no expiration period.  After establishing the expiration of one area, the domain went down to 4,000.  And initially, the way they forward domains before we took over, but through our publicity, it is not very effective.  We have gone to one a month another approach I would think is maybe to advocate the DNS business at the schools and universities not in terms of marketing, but in terms of building capacity and awareness for future managers of the registry.  By doing so, you will be [INAUDIBLE] to do the marketing because once they grab [INAUDIBLE] and join [INAUDIBLE] which are using maybe that dot com, they will be convince and tell them the reason why they should use the TZ domain.

>> Thank you very much.  We have looked at the business side of it.  You can look at also the underlying infrastructure and technologies we need to take into account, but most importantly about security of this security.  And I would like to call upon Paul just to give some thoughts about the experience in our country and what we are doing and also some input from you.

>> PAUL MUSEEH:  Thank you, MURIUKI.  I will talk about TzNIC deployment in South Africa and currently the five ccTLDs must have been signed.  Although, we mentioned like a transitional keys to [INAUDIBLE] that are in place.  But what is happening currently?  We have a [INAUDIBLE], Tanya, we also have tested on [INAUDIBLE] and the troubles available in the market both open source and commercial for the implementation of TzNIC.  We're using open TzNIC which is also used by [INAUDIBLE] and also the developers part of the developers.  So we are tested the bits and we are trying to see if we can roll out on full deployment by the end of the year to insure that they sign and maybe we can get comments from the floor for those who have signed the zones to tell us what it is the experience.

>> Know thank you, Paul.  The floor is yours.  What experiences can you give us to strengthen what you are doing in east Africa and by extension Africa.

>> Sorry to ask for the floor again.  I am extremely impressed to see the test bed because many ccTLDs have struggled with TzNIC and I want to share information.  I was involved in a study on behalf of [INAUDIBLE] UK combined regulator on DNSsec.  Without going into huge detail, what we found was that despite extensive work on the half of many registries and [INAUDIBLE] being 1 of them to figure out how to implement the standard and to do it, there is absolutely no user demand.  And that's very disappointing because when you think of the number of larger businesses who could really do securing their business in every possible way, just think of the online bank, the online retailers to name but a few.  Nothing.  And so congratulations for implementing.  That mutts you very much at forefront technically of the ccTLD community, but it was a surprise to me to learn of the low level of take up even though in countries such as Sweden which have had deployment of DNSsec for many years that the major banks are not registering or not securing their own domain in DNS6.  This brings us back to the Eco system point.  It sounds like the registries are doing their bit and the knowledge of what the standard can do for the users and the demand from the users in developed countries for DNS6.

>> Thank you, Emily, thank you very much for all those comments.  Very inspiring and I think they will make Paul continue work hard on what he's doing.  Keith?

>> Keith:  Just a very quick observation about DNSec and congratulations on make very good progress.  I think one of the bigger issues that seems to be emerge negligent Asia Pacific region at least, which is the only region I can speak, but it's the policy environment and the policies that you have for DNSec that are very, very critical.  With assigned domain name, transferring between registrars becomes a very complicated business.  So having clarity around the policies that you are going to have in place is quite critical.  Just as a hint as well as technical deployment, look at your policy requirements and how to undo things on the occasions like transferring registers.  Thank you.

>> MURIUKI:  Thank you very, very much.  Um, the floor is open for comments, for ‑‑ Vince?

>> I can never pass up an available microphone.  Speaking for Google, one of the things that we are very interested in and concerned about is the reliable operation of domain name servers.  When we register in any ccTLD, it's important to us that the domain name will resolve promptly and reliably every time.  And so, not only are we interested in things like DNS sec, but we're also very interested in knowing you have servers in countries.  You may have back up servers that are operating outside of the country so that resolution will continue to work even if there's a local problem.  We also care a great deal about the security of the server system itself without picking on anyone and as far as I know, none of the problems that I'm about to relate occurred in east Africa.  But some of the smaller ccTLD operations are not as secure as they should be and the machines have become penetrated, the domain names have been high‑jacked.  Our domain name is aimed at false service hosts.  We care a great deal about preventing that from happening and second, about recovery.  When it does happen, in some case, it's been very hard to find the operator of the ccTLD in order to do something about it.  So, these are places where, um, non‑local registering as we typically are will be made more comfortable and happier if we have some assurance that there is secure at operation that the locale.

>> Thank you, Vince.  Paul?

>> PAUL MUSEEH:  I will comment on the DNS redundancy.  It's a requirement that when you're setting up a registry, the ccTLD registry, you have servers in at least two different geographical locations.  For Kenya, we have three DNS servers.  One ‑‑ two in Kenya, but not in the same location and one in the U.S., which is hosted by Cossa, the operator for ‑‑ we're also in the process of doing another one with a [INAUDIBLE] so that we also expand our redundancy and the second one, the one we have with Inca service that is all over the wall.  So in terms of redundancy, we are doing good.

>> Great.

>> Thank you very much.  This is a very exciting session.  I am learning a lot.  We're also learning a lot and I can assure you the next time you come for, I would like to have another IGF in Kenya and you will see a lot of these in western region and east Africa.  We're looking at the marketing plate of T. there is also security.  But is that bullet 1 there, which is seeing that ccTLDs are not just a technical institution, but they are going to midwife the development of our countries, mission political, social and economic and also the link within our countries to the group of village.  I would like some comments allowed on that and how you see it from your own country.  How you're moved the ccTLD from being a technical institution to a DLA, means development in the country.  Comments?  I think the faster ‑‑ oh, good.  I will do it later.

>> Ah, basically ccTLD is a resource for communication.  So the reaction behind a territory country is to manage a resource.  We come to delegation issues and you manage it within the country and you build your capacity.  Technical capacity and even use it, but if you can to consider the contribution of ccTLD has [INAUDIBLE] development.  First of all, it contributes it to localization of government.  Doesn't matter whether they say local language or whatever, but using the ccTLD and use the IXPs, you can localize local contempt which is local for communication.  That is a greater contribution because it minimizes the traffic which goes outside the country.  So, that is an economic contribution.  And, ah, in terms of a capacity, I touched the issue of education, educating the young guys at university.  You find in the past for the guests of Tanzania and this is why we're think thinking the market and the approach of providing lectures at the universities and colleges.  The DNS content in the [INAUDIBLE] is very little.  If you call a graduate from our university today and ask him if you type something ‑‑ if you type the URL on the browser what, happens before you get ‑‑ you get the content?  They're not there.  Having the ccTLD locally managed, strut opportunity to explain in real life to a student or to this future managers of the registry.

>> Thank you, ABIBU for those comments.  The floor is still open.  Yes.  Please come over so that you can use the microphone.  The first thing I would ask you is to introduce yourself.  And you are [INAUDIBLE] affiliation and then I give you the permission to proceed.  So introduce yourself.

>> I'm Ohamid Graham.  You might be surprised to hear Somalia and ccTLD, the two words, but nevertheless, we have ccTLD up and running for the last two years.  And yes.  I concur with the comments made earlier from Tanzania.  I think there's no argument that ccTLDs are contributing to the education 60or.

One of the things I am always surprised as I travel, I live in Australia, but [INAUDIBLE] for two years and these two years, I am spending time traveling within the country.  I was [INAUDIBLE] last week and as I meet peers, especially government officials, ministers and so on and I get their business cards, I feel embarrassed to see government officials giving me Hotmail or Gmail accounts.  I always wonder, but you have your own country.  How come?  You have your own ccTLD.  It is past the branding and making sure we are known and we are using the services.  And the other part is the universities.  Again, as a travel, [INAUDIBLE] university myself, but now I am spending time in the [INAUDIBLE] and I always visit universities and the same issue.  I ask I say, I want to write to the students and I get e‑mails, Gmail, Hotmail.  Well, why is it?  Shouldn't you have XYZ you, whatever the country is?  They're little things, about to me they're major issues and they're things we do without anyone's help is from the outside.  I might say more later on.  Thank you.

>> MULIUKI:  If you have guess, talk to him.  If you want a domain.SO, he's he.  So, if you want to do SO, we can.  Thank you very much.  [INAUDIBLE]

>> Thank you very much for the comment from dot SO.  It tracks my personal experience very much working with senior government officials and I don't think I'm speak ill in places like Nigeria where we have real issues around whether the [INAUDIBLE] and whether they'll get the e‑mails in some instances and there are people who have real concerns because of the past.  So part of the branding that I was talking about is the sense of branding.  Is there a perception that the internet is open for business in your country?  What does that mean?  I don't mean to be so narrow and sound it is so much of a business thing w that said, I think approaching it like a business really helps and making it obviously in partnership with the, community is your quickest and easiest way.  There maybe possibilities for you to partner with some of the Gs because a lot of the people who are in I interested in working in Kenya also want to work in a lot of other places and I think there is a natural affinity.  There is a natural Harmony.  If you try to go up against a large GTLn and replace them, I don't knowledge that makes sense.  Especially given your desire to have a resources around capacity building and such, a partnership may make more sense was one thought.  I do have a question though about some of the initiatives that are coming out at how you think they will affect?  For example, I would like to get an east Africa domain because we would like it do much more east Africa work.  Do we get five EACs?  Do I get a dot Africa?  These are, I think, legitimate questions for business people and NGOs who are legitimately interested in Africa, but don't want to spend their free time in administration.  I would be interested in what you think about that and what advice to you have for your friends in the outside world?

>> Yes.  I know there are a lost thoughts about EFC and I will ask one us to talk about where we are at.  But before then, I want ‑‑ there's a lady ‑‑ now because you are now here, I will ask you to introduce yourself and I give you permission to post comment.

>> I am Sala from Fiji.  Just in case you don't know where that Sit's in the Pacific.  It's good be here and I bring greetings from the Pacific streaming right now and tweeting as well.  The comment I would like to make ‑‑ I'm not from a ccTLD.  I think the information has been extremely valuable in terms of best practices to take back from the east African experience in terms of strengthening the ccTLDs.  I make reference to one of the policy area that was discussed in the 2005 recommendations.  And one of it is capacity building.  And the point that I'd like to make is in terms of, um, experiences that have been shed, particularly the transcripts.  You have countries like Tobago.  We have things preparing them for these sessions and some of them have no idea about the governance models.  It is good to have a domain name commissioner.  It is really interesting hearing from Tanzania and Kenya and I really particularly enjoyed Tanzania's comment when he said that, um, we have to, you know, there has to be a level of impact into the curriculum and I will make reference to Vince's comment that's ccTLD cannot be left on its own to show the burden of developing infrastructure and capacity building is real notes of vast universe in itself and the various components.  But I think going forward, one of the things that I can take back definitely to the Pacific and interestingly, we have in a meeting after is that, um, you know, some level of collaborative partnerships.  The ccTLDs or ridge stars universities, um, real organizations that have a mandate to execute straight gees operate including more companies and national companies like Google.  Services are really awesome.  Thank you.

>> Thank you, Sara, for those comments.  Very, very useful.  We have Tanzania.  We have Kenya and I know all of them are interested in the dot ESC.  I am looking for the sites.

>> Thank you.  One of the unexpected outcomes of, um, this study when we're conducting it was actually that question on whether or not we'd like to have, ah, a regional TOD.  It's not just the .TSZ but also dot Africa.  And there are mixed feelings about it.  Some of the ccTLDs are quite vulnerable.  So what impact it would have on those that are quite vulnerable and not just ‑‑ and also that applies to the new GTTLDs.  So there's been quite a lot of concern about what it would mean and there's the argument that it may be forth have one regional TLD that we could work with.  But, um, just like the same way we are reconsidering whether or not regional IGFs and how regional IGFs versus global IGFs is the same argument.  We first strengthen our national ccTLDs first before we can begin to deal with the regional?  And if we haven't ‑‑ the numbers like I think we haven't gotten to I think 20,000 in Kenya and that's because of costs of the various challenges from infrastructure to, you know, ah, lack of E‑commerce and all that.  What really ‑‑ is there really going to be an exact and do we even need it is the question.  Are we going to be doing it because international, wants to work with east African region of Africa.  We got our own challenges at the national level to deal with before we begin to think, you know, at that sub‑regional and global level and again, it Lynx book the that digital divide we keep speaking about.  We have a lot of work to do before we begin to think that the level.  Then there's the other argument.  The five ccTLD, Rwanda did ends to delegate and we benefit.  I think DA is not available currently.  So I think we don't really have answers for it, but one thing I know at least from a Kenya perspective, that we would regard strengthen our own.  That doesn't necessarily mean the technical aspect that.  Means forming partnerships with all the initiatives that are working so hard and working so hard to increase, um, access to the Internet for our people.  So that's why we want to go first.  We want to partner with that government to make sure that, you know, um, we're making available E‑government services at different levels we're creating a conducive environment to have relevant content and insuring we get that content central at national level by, um, strengthening our RXPs and ccTLDs.  We haven't stopped considering that at a very political level.  It's the politics of it rather than the practical, social and economics of it.  Thank you.

>> Thank you for that.  I think it is very, very clear.  Now we have got ‑‑ we have a minute left to end the session.  I will ask Vince to give [INAUDIBLE] to tell us something that will take us through the next year and I will ask David to give us a closing remark and then we close the session.  Sir?  Let's start with [INAUDIBLE].

>> I was totally agreeing with what Alice was saying about the EFC.  It's not an issue that we should rush because we still do have a challenge even on the Africa issue.  Operational issues of the registry are a challenge.  Once we get the lesson from the Africa, then we can decide how best we can move because there are some perceptions and maybe we can have east Africa (no sound) some people are saying that we need to have like [INAUDIBLE] Africa or South Africa instead of ‑‑ so EAC can be again as second level by using east Africa.  Those are different perceptions.  Once we get the experience on them and the regimen, I think it would be a better position and we can decide how to go with that.  They can establish their registries and have them operational the way we are moving up.

>> First of all, you thank you very much for organizes this session.  It would be very helpful for someone from the outside to get a sense per what life is like and trying to make the systems work locally.  I if I were to make a recommendation to you, it would be convene the interested parties and not just those you have in the ccTLD, but rather reprints of the Internet Eco system either in country or in region.  And the reason that you need to have all of them in place is that it really is an Eco system and it really requires mutual effort to and synergy in order to grow demand for Internet services in country.  And it's only with that growth that we would see a significant growth and demand for registrations in particular ccTLDs.  So, this really is an effort to grow the utility of Internet in country and in region and that is the only real driver for causing registrations to happen.  So you probably have already done this many times, but I think once again it should be a concerted campaign by all the interested parts to drive interest in and use in Internet, personal use and the like.  Governance can lead by showing the use ever Internet to share a government information, transparency and utility can derive from that.  But that's leader should.  What's important is growth and that's going to come from the private sector.

>> Thank you very much, Vince.  Now I will let David have a minute as a host of this event.

>> DAVID:  Thank you, Jeff.  So as a host of this session, I would like to thank all of you for finding time to participate especially the chair.  The panelists, all the participant and we look forward to not just discussing, but also moving forward and implementing some of the best practices that you've been able to identify and look forward to meeting in other sessions.  Thank you.

>> Thank you very much for your participation.  It was very, very exciting.  Thank you also the remote participants.  We have got some comments, but luckily most of the issues by the remote participant have been addressed.  Thank you very much.  We are going to incorporate other thoughts you have given us and, I'm assuring you next time you come, you will see a difference.  You can give a clap to you.  Thank you very much and enjoy the rest IGF.