>> PATRIK FALTSTROM: Hello, everyone, we are going to start in a few minutes, the session here on IPv deployment around the world. And I would like to have the speakers of the session to please come forward.
There should be enough chairs for everyone.
We're going to wait another minute or two because there's still some logistics here to work out.
>> PATRIK FALTSTROM: Okay. Welcome, everyone, to this session on IPv deployment in the world. We are still missing one speaker but he is at a current -- he's currently at a different meeting and we strategically placed him last in the timeline of speakers and hope that he will be able to join. My name is Patrik Faltstrom. I'm employed by Cisco. But I'm also an advisor to the Swedish Government. And we have another long list of distinguished speakers here from various parts of the world and we will hear many different things here on what people have done to ensure and help IPv6 to get deployed. I assume all people in here know that the available IPv4 address space that is -- that are unallocated is going down and because of that there's a big interest of course of starting to deploy IPv6.
What I will do at this session is to ask each one of the speakers to talk for maybe ten minutes or so about their experience and then if it is the case that you have direct questions to what the speaker was saying, please raise the questions immediately so we can get clarifications.
But I would like to wait for more longer discussions as to what the various speakers have said until all of the speakers have gotten their time to say something. So after the speakers, I hope that we actually can get a good discussion in the room. So I hope also you in the audience both can ask questions but also maybe go to the microphone and talk about your own experience of what has worked, what has not worked and bring up for example what kind of trouble do you see why are you not able to move forward because I presume there's specific reasons why you're in the room, specifically as this session is running across lunch when people can have food instead.
So with that I would like to ask Sam to start.
>> Today I'll be talking about a deployment from the registry Internet perspective from our perspective one of the big -- one of the big drivers in IPv6 takeup in the region was the implementation of a new policy in February of this year. Before that there were -- it wasn't difficult to get IPv6 but it became even simpler under the new policy. Under the new policy if you had IPv4 addresses from IPNIC you would qualify for a similar look in IPv6.
What it has resulted in you can probably see from the slide is there's a massive spike in IPv6 allocations that IPNIC has made in 2010 compared to previous years. There already was a rise in IPv6 allocations before that. But in the past year we have more than doubled the number of organisations and agencies that have IPv6. Now to compare that to what's happening globally there's two lines here the one line is showing the IPv6 made by the five regional registries on a per year basis and on the other line is the cumulative. Compare that to the IPv6 routing table and you can see there's quite a similar growth rate if you compare that to the last slide. So here the smooth line is the number of IPv6 delegations made to organisations compared to the routing table.
So you can see there's actually quite a link between the number of allocations being made and then appearing a year or so later so I would expect within the next six months to a year that the routing table will increase significantly.
Okay. I'll put just a couple of very short case studies from the Asia-Pacific region.
They are termed as a least developed economy according to the UN criteria. So perhaps it's -- there has been discussion about LDCs not being able to take on IPv6 as easier as developing countries but you can see a lot of LDCs are actually able to start deploying IPv6 they got funding from the ISA programme which is a programme from the Asia-Pacific region to deploy in 2010 and help other places in return.
Also the Pacific region is quite interesting. For a number of years because of the smaller nature of the Pacific countries, there was a perception amongst networks in this country that the v4 depletion wasn't a problem but in recent years they have begun to realise even though they may have V4 in years they still have to go to IPv6 to communicate with the rest of the world. 3G is more advanced and in a case of keeping up with the Joneses is Samoa because America is now deploying v6 Samoa is looking to deploy v6 also looking at Government restrictions to the v6 deployment in the region there's different initiatives and approaches by different governments so the Philippines and Australian governments have been targeting v6 on their own Government networks by 2012 New Zealand has been very happy with the progress of v6 deployment within the private industry so they haven't set a target date in New Zealand but they are hoping that their own Government network will set an example.
India on the other hand has taken a broader approach and is targeting IPv6 across all networks Government and private to 2012 Pakistan you may look and wondering what's happening and what they have done is analyzed the number of IPv4 addresses they have in the country and figure out when the addresses in their country will become deleted in 2014 just when they run out of IPv4 addresses there will still be RIRs similarly when they run out of addresses networks will still have available addresses for a little while.
Within the Asia-Pacific region I'm just height a couple of the awareness raising activities that are happening. There's the Asia-Pacific IPv6 Task Force. It's been around for a number of years but has been a little bit dormant. It's now reviving this year. So a lot more to come out of that soon.
IPNIC has also been working with Aptel in the last couple of years conducting a couple of workshops and IPNIC also has a specific IPv6 programme when we conduct outreach we also have training.
Finally this is not Asia-Pacific specific. But this is a global IPv6 deployment monitoring survey and it's a sneak peek. It's not out there yet so you're the first to see it. Previously the survey was conducted within the couple of RIRs but in 2010 for the first time both of our RIR communities participated so you can see some numbers there. Some of the high level outcomes from that survey. 83% of networks are considering what we already -- or already have IPv6 addresses the reasons for having IPv6 people want to be ahead of the game. So that notion of competition.
They want to make sure that v6 is supported in their product so it's again about competition and markets. And the -- these are in descending -- like in descending order so the first one is the major reason. The third reason is IPv4. Which is not the top reason. The biggest hurdle in deploying IPv6 according to the survey, No. 1 was vendor support. Two was having the staff conduct the rollout. And third was cost.
Cost was not the No. 1 concern.
And finally, when you actually have IPv6 in production the biggest problem that networks identify is the lack of customer demand for those, a lack of experience in IPv6 networks and then third the technical problems so people who are considering to moving to v6 and may initially be considering the technical problems are a big hurdle for those who actually deployed v6, it's not. It's the third hurdle.
And finally, in terms of v6 that's deployed out there in deployment, there's very little native v6 but an overwhelming majority of networks in this stack.
And that's it from me.
>> PATRIK FALTSTROM: Thank you very much.
Is there anyone that have any clarifying questions? I wrote down a couple of questions. But I'm waiting with them until the end. Because maybe the answers are coming from the other speakers. We'll see.
So the second speaker, Jan Zorz from Slovenia, you're going to talk about what you actually are doing and I heard you talk before so I hope this will be interesting.
>> JAN ZORZ: Thank you, is this working? Hello I'm Jan Zorz from Slovenia I'm coming from the go6 initiative and I'm usually presenting standing up jumping around so I will try to do it while sitting. Next slide, please. Well this speech lasts for an hour usually and I shrinked it severely to get it to 15 minutes so I'll be very quick so we will see into the several networks who deployed it in mobile networks and I will briefly mention our v6 deployment acceleration proposal to Internet search engines that's lately cost -- caused some reaction even from others. Next slide, please, RIPE NCC calculated the RIPEness factor and as you see Slovenia is the winner in the EU region. We have the most -- we are the most prepared country for v6 in Europe and wider, next slide, please.
And this is the measurement of client IPv6 capability you'll see Slovenia the highest one and you'll see the percentage is nearly 25%. So this is all the RIPE NCC measurement. And I believe they are quite accurate. Thank you.
Next slide, please.
So we are IPv6 initiative in Slovenia.
We are operating as a not-for-profit organisation. We have the strategic partnership with ARRIS. And this is ARIN, an academic research network. IETF is level for telecommunications on the faculty of electrical techniques and we have a very open platform. We are based on membership. We have all major ISPs, mobile operators, content providers, integrators from Slovenia and we make these people talk to each other and we are financially supported by go6 platform for now. We are looking also into other options of founding for doing good for the Internet and on the Internet. And we are still by go6 expert Council which is formed from representative of governments our regulator academic research network faculty and the industry and I'm chairing this expert Council. Next.
And this is our platform. This is what we do and you'll see we have big members. Like our national telecom is SIST manufacturer we have mobility as a national serve mobile operator. Next slide, please. And this is the expert Council. This is very important stuff. And this is important message that I want to tell it to you in our Expert Council. We have the Minister for science and technology. He is there in the audience.
We have Ekbankut. He's also here from our regulator. Matiag is from our laboratory for telecommunications. Next. Mateish is representative of industry. And Cimon is the chair of the Working Group in Slovenia. So we have very different people in this Steering Committee of go6. And this is how things get done. Next.
And me as a go6 co-founder and Expert Council chair. And this is how we do meetings. The real Internet way.
And this is why all this works. Next.
So our activities consist of we have -- we created IPv6 Working Group. We gathered IP access from the industry. And we created the dialogue. Next.
We organised Slovenia IPv6 summits. The third was done in May 2010 on -- and the fourth one Patrik is coming over to keynote it. And the last one Daniel was keynoting it.
Then we -- what we do is initial IPv6 consulting to members of platforms. So when members join the platform they don't know what to do, how to start. They are a bit lost. And we help them with some consultancy on where there should start looking into different directions they want to go. We organise 6 deploy works. You all know about 6 deploy. This is an EC founded project about dissemination of IPv6 knowledge. We organise events. We already organised two workshops. Next. We are operating host 6 deploy lab. This was donated by Cisco and Six Deploy itself. Next. We are actively involved in A + P RFC draft developments this is with Randy Bush and Nokia and other guys. Next.
We are founding the go6 academy. This is segregation of IPv6 education, commercial education in Slovenia. So this is like an umbrella organisation for all of the knowledge.
Next. And we do lots of testing. Go6 lab, we are now applying for accreditation for IPv6 ready programme.
And we go around the world, do some IPv6 speeches in various conferences. And this is one of them. Next.
Our Working Group. We are preparing the document describing the requirements and compliancy of ICT equipment. There's a failure -- with IPv6 standards. This was meant for our Government and for public services for tenders. But now the scope is a bit wider. We are now preparing with some chairs from RIPE Working Groups. The English version that will be posted to RIPE IPv6 Working Group I think this week or next week. So we hope that we will receive some -- achieve some consensus from publishing this as a RIPE recommendation document. We'll see what happens in that.
We do the evaluation certification of IPv6 courses.
And we are helping Government with the preparation of IPv6 Action Plan. Doing quite extensive study on that. And hopefully that will become some sort of national strategy later. Thank you.
And we are a mixed form of Task Force, RIPE Working Group and IETF Working Group. We took the best parts from each of these forums. Next.
And this 6 deploy workshop. You need to know that we are 2 million people nationwide. This is quite a lot of people attending to these workshops.
As I said, our colleagues, -- these are our colleagues from Ginet that are doing the workshop.
And on IPv6 summits we have some world known keynoters, Martin Jalavey (phonetic), Daniel Mender. Patrik is coming next.
And we have presenters from around the world.
We also have some presenters on IPv6 from Slovenia. It's very important that local knowledge is getting exposed.
The big push is update minutes. Where every ISP and content providers and everybody comes up. Have five minutes. And say what he's doing on IPv6. And this is the way we create attention between the competitors. So nobody wants not being there if their competitor is there saying what they are doing on IPv6. This is how things get done.
Our ministry for science and Technology initiated some round tables that were very, very helpful. Next.
And this is about 130 attendees were on our IPv6 summits. If you count 2,000,130 people that's a good result. Next. This is our secretary Minister of science and technology with us that are opening the summits. Next this is Martin keynoting. Next. This is the roundtable. This is high level round table with some CTOs and CEOs of our telecourse and other organisations.
And it's very important that we share our knowledge. So we have proven our concept is proven to work. Because we did deploy v6 and RIPE measures good results. So lots of people realise that they can learn from us how we are doing it, what are the mechanisms to push the v6 deployment. And that's why we went around the world wherever we are invited. Next.
Thank you for finding this interesting. Next.
That's me presenting in Slovenia. That's me on RIPE 60 presenting. That's me on Google conference in Mountain View, California. That's me in Greece somewhere. That's me in Germany IPv6 summit. Next.
And I will add this picture, also. What's our mission? We make people talk to each other. That's very important. And we create attention between competitors.
And we push v6 deployment in Slovenia. What a surprise.
We aggregate knowledge and make it available between members. That's very important.
And we connect Government regulated ISPs and industries and this is most important because you need to interconnect these entities to make your work relevant and other things that other people thinks this is serious stuff, this is not a joke anymore.
We make a competition. Companies talk to each other. Well, basically we create attention we became a point in Slovenia and it works this is a result lots of IPv6 allocations in Slovenia.
This is very -- very -- this is good mechanism. Our agency for Post and Electronic Educations Regulator conducted a survey. And conducting a survey gave the good message to high level management. Because they said: Okay, our regulator is asking about v6 this is serious this is getting serious. It's not a joke anymore. So talk to your regulator. Ask them to do the survey.
Well the results of the survey can be meaningful. But the message that the regulator puts through the high level management about IPv6 is very important. Next. This is some results from the survey. Next. This is also the results from the survey. The last one not concerned yet 19.5%. We need to change that. To lower that.
So this is deployment in Slovenia major 3G cell networks. Two done. One to go. Land line side is partially done business customers can get v6 native at free ISP already residential customers two ISPs deploying I created the big push on Friday. They wanted to deploy native v6 to my home as a residential user from our national telecom and we failed on Friday but I think they fixed it now so I think when I come home I will have the native v6 access as a residential user. We are now talking about PPPoE we are not talking about that we are talking native VLAN stuff. What are the show stoppers? CP definitely. That's all around the world the same problem and we also have content providers our national TVs v6 and search engine in Slovenia is also deploying v6 and other content providers are going to v6 so we are creating extra push on access and content sides.
And these are the photos of the phone. That's a Nokia E52. And you can see in Slovenia if you go into the bush or if you go into the mountains you can have IPv6 on your phone via 3G connectivity. You see the interest when I access the RIPE.net site and that's a good message. It's doable. We did it on two mobile networks. So why don't you call your mobile network provider and ask them about why they are not doing it. You can point them to my presentation saying Slovenians did it why aren't you doing it. Next this one -- the last one for mobile operators with two different slash 32 allocations and as you see, it's working.
We already did on Nokia N900 some dual stack with two P2P context and it's working and we are doing dual stack mobile IPv6 part of the stack developing it together with Nokia Research Centre. This is even more crazier than you might ever think. Next.
What is still missing? No wide support in mobile terminals. Currently Nokia N900 and Symbian. No content based charging. And limited support for dual stacking terminals.
And very briefly this is our proposal for search engines. How to modify the search engine result page to push the v6 deployment. I will not go deeply into it. You have the link on the bottom it's go6.si/proposal it's in the English language you can read it we formulated it together with Sander Steffan. And the results together with Latif and David Holder we got attention and response from Vint Cerf. He said that Google is looking into our proposal. And they are starting the possible negative effects if they deploy it.
So we steal the part a bit. And we got huge support and consensus from a very wide Internet community. This proposal got into IPv6 act Now news section thank you, RIPE NCC. And our servers exploded.
So it's a win-win combination. Nobody is hurt. Content providers goes to IPv6. But have a look, read our proposal. And comment it. And you can send an e-mail or something.
So my e-mail is Jan@go6.si. If you have comments or if you want me to speak at your events you can send me an e-mail. And questions about deployment in mobile networks. You have two e-mails there. They will be happy to respond.
And that's it. Thank you.
>> PATRIK FALTSTROM: Thank you, Jan. It was like I expected. And now I also know what kind of pressure is on me when going down to Slovenia in November. So I will also make like 55 slides. And present it during five minutes or something. So we see how it goes.
>> JAN ZORZ: Was I too long.
>> PATRIK FALTSTROM: No; no. It was absolutely fine. Is there any direct clarifying questions? Or else I think we should move forward, too. Because I think we can have a pretty interesting discussion here.
Okay. So let's move forward. And the next person is Antonio Moreiras from NIC.br.
>> ANTONIO MOREIRAS: Thank you. Yes; yes. No problem.
Okay. Here we go. Well, I'm Antonio Moreiras from the Brazilian Network Information Centre. And I would like to talk about our efforts in IPv6. First of all, I would like to make a very brief presentation of what is NIC.br and what is the Internet Brazilian Steering Committee.
We have multistakeholder organisation to take care of Internet Governance at a national level.
Implemented by the Brazilian Internet Steering Committee. It's a team of 21 volunteers. 9 from the Government. 11 from Civil Society representing users, ISPs industries and NGOs and et cetera and one Internet -- this committee considers debate and coordination for the Internet-related initiatives in Brazil. It has no regulator powers.
The committee has created a non--profit organisation called the Brazilian Network Information Centre to act as it's executive arm. NIC.br manages the .br ccTLD charging about $17 per year per domain. What constitutes our funding. We also act as a national Internet registry and we have a series of projects and services to improve Internet in Brazil. Among the projects and services we have, it's important to have the Internet traffic exchange. We manage 12 of them in our country with an aggregated presently 35 gig P PS we have also a group that secures incidence response and others that produce statistics about Internet use. We make measurements on the Brazilian Internet infrastructure requirements and on .br web we have assimilation on the protocol and others.
So next, please.
This standpoint in our actions was to facilitate the process for the ISPs to get IPv6 allocations. For some time it was NICs responsibility but it generates a responsibility to Brazilian ISPs so in December 2007 register.br started to make the IPv6 and AS numbers allocation as it had already been done at IPv4. This facilitated access to the addresses and led to increasing registration and use.
As part of our awareness initiatives we started in April 2008 to make speeches at several events and meetings, universities, free software events, et cetera.
So far there have been more than 40 speeches and we think they have helped the process. Next, please.
We started our IPv6. Br web site in June 2008. The first idea was to have collaborative web site working as a -- to serve preexistent content. It worked but would not suffice. We realised it was necessary to fill a lot of gaps and start to write articles and sessions off the web site.
The IPv6 web site today has information tagged at our audience as users, environment, people, content managers and engineers.
We have our content censored and reactive comments. Next, please.
This is a screen shot of the web site. We have about 500 unique visitors per day. It's kind of a reference of IPv6 in Portuguese.
We also created an eLearning package that is free and available on the Web and is also distributed in our institutional CDs. It's used as an introduction baseline for our hands-on training. It also became very popular among networking students. That's a screen shot. It's a four-hour course.
There is work in progress by NIC.Chile. To translate it to Spanish, NIC.ch if anyone wants to create this work, talk to us. So next, please.
Our most useful initiative is the hands-on capacity building course held at NIC.br and it's targeted at the Brazilian ISPs. We have prepared our brochures in Portuguese. Also available under a very permissive creative commons license.
We also have laboratory for access. Next, please.
We already had 16 courses. And it became very common in the next few days or weeks after the course. The -- that ISP should take some concrete action towards the adoption of IPv6 as asking for allocation, appearing or launching an IPv6 web site.
The course is free. Funded by .br domain names and it's content is suitable for ISPs, technical staff, addressing talks such as addressing -- a lesson plan and routing configurations.
There will be in addition together with the PTT forum and LAC ORG and LACNIC with a number of institutions from LACNIC region will also be free. There will be a fellowship programme from ISOC to the event as a whole. Next, please.
This is a diagram of our laboratory and our head quarter. This is a five-day, eight hours a day course for 32 students. Next, please.
Our most recent initiative is to give IPv6 free of charge to participants of our biggest Internet exchange that is PTT Samoa we started offering this in March 2010 and today we have 14 active participants. The offer has some limitations such as having limited bandwidth by our participants.
With this respect -- with this we expect to foster IPv6 tools between the gap between allocated and the routed IPv6 addresses.
According to the BGP Weathermap we are already fourth IPv6 trends for AS for Latin America region. We don't know if this could be seen as a good result. The initiative is very limited there should be a lot of IPv6 commercial providers bigger than us with more clients than us.
Well, about budget. In 2009, the investment for this project involved of having two people working full time maintaining the lab and giving lessons. Purchase of a keyboard to develop our lab production of the LAN package and brochures. In 2010 our budget has about the same amount. Because we are offering the course in other Brazilian regimes, not only in Sao Paulo. I would like to highlight the participation of the school of Microsoft for our course and the opportunity to realise this course and others with the support of local participants. Next, please.
One of the ways we can use this the deployment of IPv6 is through address blocks allocation. And this graph that shows the allocation for Brazilian assistance is a long time.
There's a huge increase coinciding with the start of our initiatives in 2008.
We also have seen along 2009 and 2010 some Brazilian ISPs creating IPv6 testing Web sites or enable IPv6 in their main web site.
There's an interesting case of big hosting provider that deployed IPv6 to more than 20,000 hosted domains at the same time.
There are some providers offering IPv6 trends to home and corporate customers. Either as a full service or on an experimental basis there are also some interesting initiatives from the Government as a dock from the Federal Government called AP that recommends IPv6 and in the case of the governments of the state of Sao Paulo that ask for IPv6 in publicly stationed process for upgrading their networks. Next, please.
So this is the second survey we conducted in 2010. Among the Brazilian ISPs. We identified the deployment lever of IPv6 in their networks and the main problems involved.
Among other information, the surveys have helped us to identify a number of difficulties faced by an ISP. In the deployment of IPv6 in Brazil.
One of the difficulties reported is the cost of the deployment because of the need to exchange equipment and training the technical staff.
However, the main items are the lack of technical knowledge and lack of options for IPv6 traffic.
In Brazil we don't have many operators providing IPv6 trends to force the ISPs especially outside of Sao Paulo choose things with American, North American or European providers.
Here we asked what were the main difficulties.
So the first one is lack of market customers don't ask for IPv6. We think this is -- this shows a lack of understanding of the problem. The customers will never ask for IPv6. They want the Internet, the videos, et cetera. IPv6 shall be addressed by the ISPs, not the customers. The others are lack of technical acknowledgement and lack of support from up streams. Next, please.
Here we can see some change of poster in ISPs that take our training. A higher share of ISPs trained have formal programmes and groups taking care of IPv6 implementation inside the company. Next, please, in a similar way we see here that the trained ISPs are more likely to take limited action toward IPv6 adoption. Next, please, so that is it. Thank you very much.
>> PATRIK FALTSTROM: Thank you very much. Are there any clarifying questions people want to ask?
If not, let's move on to the next speaker. Constanze Burger from Germany.
>> CONSTANZE BURGER: Hello, nice to be here, my name is Constanze Burger. I'm from the Germany I'm coming from the Department of IT security management and IT infrastructures. First of all, I wanted to show you the political side. And I want to say some political statements about the deployment of IPv6 in general.
The Internet is the main driver of business and innovation and growth in our country. Where one task of Federal Government is to continue developing and designing the Internet so that it is impossible -- so that it is possible to better utilize and potentiate offers and we see IPv6 as a chance to turn the Internet of communication into the Internet of things and services.
And the Federal Government regards the adoption of IPv6 as an important part of introducing new Internet technologies and modern, secure communication infrastructures. As a buyer and user of network infrastructures and applications, public administration plays an important role in the German market with the active introduction of IPv6 the demand of v6 capable products will grow even more. With the political positioning we will create greater transparency and planning sent for participating -- certainty for participating interest groups. At the same time the stimulus package will help motivate the IT sector to adopt IPv6 Germany is the largest Internet nation in Europe. And in the top 5 worldwide. About 62 million people in Germany regularly use the Internet for a penetration rate of 75%. But this also means that all Internet users must have -- must want to retain full functionality.
They will be able to do this only if they adopt IPv6.
Now I'm starting my slides. These are just the prewords.
First an overview. And first is to our mission.
What's our mission in Germany? It is to prepare for the growth in Internet usage and for future generation of maintaining protectiveness based on the Action Plan from the Commission and based on agreement between the Government, Federal, states and municipalities. Next one, please.
We have a difficult base in Germany. We are a Federal state with many levels. And we are very proud that we got consensus with the decision boards who are presenting all administration levels to apply for a common IPv6 address space. In whole German Administration.
We became a RIPE membership. And we got an address space at slash 26 for RIPE NCC.
We formed a representative Working Group from German Administration to design the address concept and organisation concept. And we got the formal approval of the planning approach within our ministry.
What are our challenges? We see a real study slide we have done of networks in 2007. And this is real work. This was real world. This is our challenge. It's a high complexity of historical grow networks with decentralized administration.
Structured network management mission impossible. We say no.
Next one, please.
What are our needs?
We want to migrate to a future-proofed converged IPv6 enabled NGN with high security, high stability and high performance.
We want -- Government communication requires extremely high security networks. Architecture and security standards.
We plan a long-time planning. We need high flexibility to react on political and economical and social environments. Now the crisis is over.
What are our actions? We finished the address concept. We broke down the slash 26. And 64 blocks of size of slash 32. And we assigned the first blocks. We finished a draft of the organisation concept. And we planned an independent administration of the slash 32 blocks by levels in the Federal State. We prepared a tool set for the users operation guidelines, checklist and technical staff and something like that and all of this.
What are our implementations? My son is with me. That's a picture of him.
We started two big projects in the Federal level. And they were started to modernize the communication infrastructure of the public administration based on IPv6 in Germany.
The first network is the epic network called DOE. It's an infrastructure serving Federal Government, states and municipalities.
And the second one is called NDB. And this is a common network for the Federal Administration. It's starting soon in migration. And it connects the federation at a high security level. Next, please.
What are our next steps?
We want to final the address concept and organisation concept. We want to approve by the German IT Planning Board. And we want to start IPv6 adverse distribution for all users.
We started -- we want to start with a research project we want to set up a profile for the German Administration like the Americans did in the NIST profile. And we want to support IPv6 pilots.
And clear, we want to support European and worldwide IPv6 initiatives.
Thank you for your attention.
>> PATRIK FALTSTROM: Thank you, Constanze. Any questions to her, either, as well? No? Okay. In that case, Paul? Paul Rendek is going to present on behalf of MENOG.
>> PAUL RENDEK: Yes, good afternoon, my name is Paul Rendek from the RIPE NCC. The presentation I'm going to present is coming from MENOG which is the Middle East operators group Osama Al-Dosary is the Chairman of that group and on very short notice he couldn't be with us today so he asked me if I could actually present this on his behalf. I will try to give it the justice he would and convey the messages that MENOG wanted to bring to this workshop and if you can go back to that first slide with whatever I'm presenting to you here today, if you have any questions, then Osama has asked me to put down his e-mail address here. You can contact him directly from anything that you want clarified from the Middle East Network Operators Group. So just to start with general stats for IPv6 in the Middle East currently there are 426 members of the RIPE NCC Middle East region we call these local Internet registries and of those there are 91 IPv6 allocations given to date.
20 of them have been made this year. So if we look at the percentages of how IPv6 is distributed throughout the whole RIPE NCC region we can see that the percentage is quite comparable to the rest of the region. I think that's about -- that represents about 21% and I think on average in the RIPE NCC area in Europe and some of the other areas we see anywhere from that range to about 27%. So that's quite comparable.
The MENOG IPv6 Roadshow. MENOG the group for those of you who don't know what the Middle East Network Operators Group is it's the group that brings together the network operators in that region be they from Government, be they from ISPs, vendors, the general technical community and MENOG holds two meetings a year at various different locations throughout the Middle East and it brings the knowledge that people can share together and regional perspectives on what has to happen with development of the network in the Middle East so they can be competitive in this global Internet environment.
MENOG has welcomed all of the different areas of stakeholders including governments and regulators. It's been quite successful at having these regulators and governments at its local meetings that it's had. To date there's been seven MENOG meetings held. The current one will be held in Istanbul. And we'll talk about that in a moment.
But so what MENOG has done has actually come to forums such as this and talked to various different stakeholders and what it's seen is it also wants to raise awareness of IPv6 throughout the Middle East region and what it does with this IPv6 the roadshow it's teamed up with the RIPE NCC their regional Internet registry and it's actually gone and taken trainers and their time to actually provide v6 training inside the region now these MENOG IPv6 road shows are targeted at Government and enterprise employees, only not the technical community and the reason for this is because workshops such as this are held at the MENOG meetings and they are open for the technical community to participate in so they felt they wanted to reach out to maybe some of the communities that they don't get to train so what the MENOG IPv6 Roadshow is it's a three to five day hands-on IPv6 training for technical staff of governments, regulatory bodies and enterprise.
The next SKID workshops will take place as follows here there will be one in October in Istanbul in November Amen Dubai in December Syria, Damascus in January and Iran in 2011 some time. We have not managed to nail a date down.
These Government bodies or regulatory bodies have approached MENOG from these areas. They are organising these workshops on their own. They are actually bringing the staff and deciding who actually will be coming to these workshops. MENOG will only be providing the training and the trainers. MENOG does this free of charge for these Government and enterprise bodies it thinks it's very important to make sure governments realise they need to deploy v6 to their networks and the know-how for their staff is something that's held quite high.
I've put the URL Osama has put the URL here on this slide.
I think the message he wanted to bring from the roadshow to this workshop and also to the IGF Forum in general he would like to reach out to any Middle Eastern regulatory bodies or governments of interest that would like to host a roadshow and MENOG will get that organised and make this a success.
So past workshops at MENOG.
There have been a few in the last year that have been noted down here there was one in Bahrain one in Lebanon one very recently in Saudi Arabia in April of trainings for these countries in the Middle East these people were coming from and incidently these were workshops held more for the technical staff of technical organisations or vendors or ISPs but amongst these we did see that some regulatory folks joined these. And they were the ones that have been supporting this initiative and having this roadshow coming to the governments and enterprise.
So MENOG meetings there's an upcoming MENOG meeting in Istanbul which will happen in October there's a two-day conference here where general conference sessions are held there's usually some presentations there's definitely presentations on v6 it's a hot topic there there's things an capacity building in the desert what have you and quite a range of presentations given but there's also the five-day workshop that's held in this which is the reason why you see the length of the date there. So there will be that provided there. MENOG 8 will be happening in April in Damascus. So it's half to Syria after Istanbul. And the web site at MENOG is listed down here if you would like any more information on that.
Thank you very much.
>> PATRIK FALTSTROM: Thank you very much, Paul. And the last speaker, welcome to the room. I hope your previous meeting was successful. The last speaker, Adiel Akplogan from AfriNIC.
>> ADIEL AKPLOGAN: Thank you. I don't have slides. But I will give you a brief perspective on IPv6 deployment in Africa. Generally where we stand and we'll report on the progress there, as well.
Before starting I just want to say that it's very refreshing to see all of this progress from people who actually are doing and deploying IPv6 in different arenas from Government to private companies to ISP. And this is something very, very encouraging and something that we are seeing in every area from the number of IP addresses we are allocating which is growing very fast.
If I take AfriNIC first this year we have broke the record of IPv6 allocation whereby we have allocated up to now 30 prefixes to different ISPs in the region, which is double of what we have done last year. And this trend is the same in all of the area. Which is very encouraging. Because we are all concerned about the deployment of IPv6. But at the same time, it's happening. And a few positive things are happening.
In AfriNIC region in general we have up to now 107 IPv6 allocations to the new version. And this is to 750 RIR that we have.
Which is almost 15% of our membership which are today ready to deploy IPv6.
From them, though, our other 40% are already announcing their preferences and from those announcing their preferences, we have nearly 50% of them who are either -- who have IPv6 deployed on their infrastructure and provide some kind of service, the tunnelling of test bed allocation to their end user which for us is very interesting.
We have 30 countries in the region that have IPv6 allocation today country wide.
Leading country obviously South Africa followed by Kenya. Mauritius and Egypt where we are seeing a huge IPv6 allocation uptick.
That is the allocation side.
We are seeing also a lot of ISPs that are deploying the service in South Africa. And Egypt. To mention those two. There are many ISPs who are already in South Africa and really very -- in a very recent meeting we have seen a few ISPs who said we are ready we have deployed IPv6 from our current work we have IPv6 available for customers and people who request it, they get it and we connect them even though we don't have a formal service agreement, which includes IPv6 in what we do but we give it to them and we let them know this is not our -- this is not part of our service. But you can have it and play with it. Which is quite interesting.
It's now possible as AfriNIC in South Africa to have the IPv6 connectivity.
So in South Africa in Egypt and in Kenya there are a few ISPs who have worked hard to deploy IPv6 in their current work and are waiting for the demand for their customers to get connected and one thing that we always tell them that yes, you have it. But if you don't add it to your service and advertise it, nobody will really ask for it because customers, they don't really care about which protocol you're using to provide them the service what they want is to be connected to the Internet and if you tell them you can provide them the IPv6 which is the next generation of the Internet Protocol, they will be more than happy to use it.
We have noticed even though this is progressing and in other countries like Cote de'Ivoire, Senegal, Tanzania doing a lot in this area, the one issue that keeps coming from those ISPs is the support from upstream providers. As you know in the region we are still lacking a very well interconnect network in the region where exchange points can be considered for local traffic.
So many of the operators are connected to international providers directly even though some countries have some direct connections.
And the issue that keeps coming is their upstream providers are not ready yet to connect them with IPv6 some time or to be able to have a formal IPv6 service integrate them.
So it is an issue. And what we do usually is to try to see if we have contact with those ISPs and try to push them, as well. To do it.
So the demand here in this context comes from the ISP and the community themselves. Where the upstream and the downstream provider has to request the service from them. It's not obviously the end user.
Another very critical step that we have taken since two years now is to work with regulators and Government in different countries. Especially countries where there is a clear interest and clear strategy from the governments to move into IPv6 to try to see with them what are the actions they can take. How they can help this to happen. And we have an example in Egypt where the Government at some point especially the Ministry of ICT has requested any service provider to the ministry has to provide IPv6. Until that, there is no -- there was no real service on IPv6. And since that, that has been said. Truly IPv6 Task Force in Egypt many ISPs in Egypt now start providing IPv6 connectivity. And the Government is including how to extend that from their end and include our services in general.
While it is true that many ISPs and the network in general in Africa was instrumental to deploy IPv4 and we keep telling people that yes we are running out of IPv4 but our region has some specificity and some popularity because we are still at the low side of usage of IPv4 itself due to the lack of demand. Due to a very legacy of the IPv4 assertion that we have carried along way with ISP. I still think -- they think they cannot get access to IPv4 which they need which lead to a very low level of allocation in the IPv4 allocation in the region. Which puts us as AfriNIC as one of the last of the queue in the IPv4 solution in the current situation. But if we want to sustain our network and if we want to play in the global world whereas tomorrow the network will not be only the network of people but network of teams where mobile device will become the most intelligent device that we will use.
See the uptick of mobile in the region there is no other choice than being prepared and ready to implement IPv6 on our network. Even though there's no reason to panic and many ISPs are getting ready for that. We have to plan that. And that is the key. We are giving to this. And we are seeing a very positive result in that area.
In Africa, for instance, if you compare IPv4 allocation to IPv6, we have more 500 more times in the region compared to IPv4 which is encouraging. Which shows that we have provisioned for along the way most sustainable integration in the region.
Coming back to a global, more global perspective, the survey conducted recently with the forming of the European Union has also highlighted some various interesting aspects of the allocation of the IPv6. Because it shows -- it gives some very interesting data about the IPv6 deployment in general.
And what is more interesting to see is that most of the ISPs are ready to develop IPv6. They say they want to do it either now or in the very near future.
But the most difficult aspect is usually either the CPE which is the end user recruitment or the technical knowledge of their stuff. And it's one area where the area in general we are putting effort into doing training. All kinds of training from purely technical training to training for policymakers to extend the challenge that's behind the IPv6 AfriNIC as well other areas are deeply involved in this kind of training.
First of all, to raise the awareness within the technical community. But also the policymakers are on the -- on board but at the same time push that training toward vendors and get recruitment providers so that they can get those CPE ISPs ready. And by default the CPEs so it's not entirely -- so it's entirely there for the deployment.
I think I will stop here for now. And I would be glad to have a few questions, comments related to clarify.
>> PATRIK FALTSTROM: Thank you very much, Adiel. So we -- we have gone through the speakers here. And I have some key messages here that I wrote down. And the first important thing that I heard Jan saying very clearly is one success factor at the meetings you have is you ask everyone to talk. And that people are including providers No. 1 is to say exactly what they have done and that is approximately what I also want to have out of this session. So I would like to start here. If there's anyone in the audience that would like to in a minute or something short telling the same kind of stories. What you have done or any ideas or anything. Is there anyone that would like to say something before we go into a discussion? Please, Jonne Soininen.
>> JONNE SOININEN: This is Jonne Soininen from Nokia Siemens Networks. First of all, thank you for the great panel that you have here. It's really nice to see that things are moving along and there's a lot here that is happening.
This is something that we cared about as a company because as Nokia and Nokia Siemens network for a great deal and we have been trying to push the IPv6 version issue for many years. And now I think that these examples that for instance what Jan is doing are very important for other providers, as well, to see. And we see actually that there's a lot of movement and a lot of interest.
We for instance use for our demos we use TeliaSonera, a network in Finland that also has an IPv6 section on that and has for a very long time they just haven't been really public about that but because of this -- there's a general -- this is a genuine kind of example of peer pressure that we know from school and stuff like that.
And it seems something that really works. And when there's a peer pressure, people come out of the woodwork and do the right thing.
And it's good to see that you also not only for other providers but also for other vendors do try to get the pressure there, as well. Because as you said we have Nokia devices that do support v6 but everybody else is way behind and haven't been able to come up with these devices that would work over a cellular network of v6 and I'm looking forward for the peer pressure there, as well.
>> PATRIK FALTSTROM: Thank you. Yeah, I would like to -- before we take the next speaker I would like to say that inside Cisco we have been working pretty hard to make sure that our web site www.Cisco.com have -- is IPv6 accessible. It's actually www. IPv6. Cisco.com but still it's there. Same content and everything. Myself personally at my home just like Jan I refuse to run tunnel. I want it out of a dual stack and I push my ISP to actually do that and it was a lot of work and people talk to me why don't you have IPv6 at home I said well I tried tunnels but at one point in time you must and want to do it the correct way. So that's what I did.
>> And one suggestion. Enable telepresence in v6. That works well.
>> PATRIK FALTSTROM: Yeah that's another question of Cisco product of telepresence in IPv6 or maybe some things should only exist in IPv6. We have in the front, please. Present yourself.
>> NURANI NIMPUNO: Nurani Nimpuno. I think we run Exchange Points in Sweden. And we deployed IPv6 I think there were two lessons learned that I would like to share. Excuse me.
The first one was that we decided to deploy IPv6 in all we didn't want to have IPv4 services and IPv6 services all of the services we provided should be fully functional in IPv4 and IPv6 and I think -- I think that was a wise decision from the start.
The second was that we found that when we entered the project, so to speak, that most of the time was actually consumed in the planning phase. There was a lot of time spent on planning, getting everything right. Getting our IPv6 addresses, et cetera. Once we deployed IPv6, it was fairly quick.
And that might actually be a barrier for people that they think it's more complicated than it is, it could be a psychological barrier.
>> PATRIK FALTSTROM: Thank you. And that's also what I heard Constanze talking about is that the planning phase is very important but if you spend time on the planning which of course a lot of people have already done like Jan explained in sharing those experiences the deployment is easier that's what I heard you saying and several people saying. We had a person in the back, as well.
>> MICHUKI MWANGI: Thank you, Patrik. Michuki Mwangi. I'm with the International Exchange Point and on with the Internet Society what we have done with the Kenya International Exchange Point we have realised the ISPs who are actually here the exchange point it will take a while for them to actually come up and start using IPv6. So we enabled IPv6 at the exchange point in 2008.
And we started encouraging them to start using IPv6. But it was -- you know it was by a long shot because there were really no services.
So what we were happy to observe is that the root serve operators were present at the Exchange Points providing the root serve, any cast servers on IPv6 so we started telling the ISPs now it's high time for you to go to AfriNIC and apply for IPv6 because you already have functional services existing on the exchange point and the most important thing you need to do is try to use IPv6 as the exchange point because it's the only place where you can get operational experience before you start having this running globally for your customers.
So over the last six months of just 2010, we have had quite a number of ISPs going to AfriNIC requesting for their services and actually trying to deploy the IPv6 running as the exchange point.
So we have six people appearing with IPv6 at the exchange point. And announcing their preferences. But you cannot see them on the global routing table because they are not entirely confident about how it's going to work. And so they are using that as a test bed to actually run and get to get operational experience with IPv6. So hopefully we'll see a lot more of that happening in 2011. The IPv6 being seen on the global level. Thank you.
>> PATRIK FALTSTROM: Thank you very much. Paul, please.
>> PAUL WILSON: Hi, I'm Paul Wilson from APNIC. Very interesting panel. Thank you very much to all of the speakers. I thought it was worth just mentioning a few things that are happening in APNIC's part of the world. APNIC is like AfriNIC RIPE NCC that provides address allocation services so we have been very involved with gearing ourselves up for IPv6 address management. For quite some time and on the internal processes of providing all our services technically via IPv6. But at the same time for many years we've been told by our membership that we should be spending reasonable member resources on promoting the uptick of IPv6 in whatever way we can. And we have been taking that very seriously. We've been very active in providing not only training to technicians in the proper use of IPv6 addresses but also in the configuration of services and migration from their networks from v4 to v6 we have been active in visiting governments and Government -- participating in governmental forums on raising awareness of the technical policy implications of some of the IPv6 issues that we're facing at the moment, particularly in terms of transition from v4 to v6 and what that means and what people can do.
We've been actively involved with face-to-face visits with quite a number of governments in the region there have probably been half a dozen consultations that we have had over the course of the year so far governments like Singapore and Cambodia to name a few.
I'll stress that all of these activities are actually funded completely by APNIC members. APNIC like all of the RIRs are self funded organisations from our members. So we're spending member resources. But we are a small organisation. And the size of our region, not to mention the size of the planet, is big enough to make this a huge challenge.
Training is something that you don't just do once you do it. You do it multiple times and particularly in the Internet sector there's a huge turnover in terms of staff and ability of people who may learn something and then move on and be replaced by others who need the same training very soon after. Where you have exponential growth of the majority of people who are building networks are beginners. And need the training.
So the same issue in terms of the need to repeat messages at business and governmental levels, as well.
So I think the challenge we have is not so much that the training content or the developmental content or the advice doesn't exist. It's actually I think we've got pretty well all of the needs covered in terms of what needs to be said and to whom. It's just the sheer volume of the task to reach everyone who needs to act. And let's be clear that there are an awful lot of people who do need to act in the next 12 months. It's -- the horizon is -- the transition is coming, galloping well over the horizon towards us. And we've all got quite a bit to do. Thanks.
>> PATRIK FALTSTROM: Thank you very much. I think we have a remote participation here.
>> CHRIS BUCKRIDGE: We do. I'm Chris Buckridge. I'm the remote moderator for this session and we currently have remote hubs in India, Pakistan and Kenya following this discussion. I have a comment and a question from the remote hub in Islamabad and they say the issue of no upstream or international IPv6 provisioning from international bandwidth providers still stands there. Like in Pakistan we have 13 operators mobile and Internet who have acquired IPv6 blocks. But still for international IPv6 testing they are having to look for some other resources other than our international providers. So the question is: What is the reason that these upstream providers are not IPv6 ready yet? Are they waiting for 2012 or is there presently no local market pressure and how important is this upstream IPv6 capability for further packages of IPv6 deployment in a country?
>> PATRIK FALTSTROM: Anyone that would like to comment on that? Please yeah, while you walk to the microphone, this connects a little bit to a comment that I wrote. Because one of the hurdles I heard is the lack of -- I cannot see what I wrote. Sorry. Lack of user demand I heard a couple of times and for me the question is who is the user here because for normal end users they really want to access the Facebook and whatever and don't care about the colors so this question we hear from Pakistan might that be a user demand thing that we just heard about? Please present yourself and --
>> FOUAD BAJWA: Fouad Bajwa from Pakistan. I thought it would be a good area to talk about. Because I've been involved in the discussions about IPv6 transition in Pakistan. And this has been particularly with the technical community. Mostly on something called the Telecom Grid in Pakistan. It's a mailing list. Which has more than like 900 people on it. And this issue has -- each time it comes up it comes up very severely of where do we stand in terms of transition of IPv6 at a national level.
Well, from my analysis at the moment, the current situation is that we haven't been really able to define a business case. Because these businesses that are supposed to shift in the first case, all of the telecom operators, all of the Internet service providers. And yes, we do have a certain level of technical expertise in Pakistan. There have been even regional operator network group events happening in Pakistan. My city hosted one of them a year or two ago.
And there is extensive knowledge in the market, as well, with regards to IPv6 and its benefits. But interestingly, there is no combined programme or thirst towards realising this impact. Because a great deal -- I would say that a great deal of ICT business in Pakistan still goes unrecognized. And with regards to that sort of it has to be a multistakeholder approach. It has to be bottom up. It has to be top down.
And in order to do that, we need to get this technical community, business owners, and some form of regulatory support to actually push this drive.
I've had offers throughout the past two years for technical people from Europe, from the US and even Central Europe to come into Pakistan or at least help us remotely to make this transition. But it's mostly on the ground interest. Which has to due directly with capacity building and this capacity building people have been trying they are in initiatives like ISOC Pakistan certain other groups trying to raise certain awareness but most of the time that I saw in terms of the honey nut project in Pakistan and so forth it was one of the leading Internet service providers that actually helped and supported such a volunteer effort and built that technical community.
So this question is -- this question isn't something that has to be international. It's more of a ground level issue. It has to be brought from bottom up.
>> PATRIK FALTSTROM: Wait for the microphone. Don't walk away so fast. You talked about you had a discussion about business model.
>> PATRIK FALTSTROM: I think at earlier conference I heard that trying to think that you can actually make more money by selling IPv6 will probably be more or less a bad idea and one -- well -- just a second.
So what I heard is that people like more or less unfortunately they have to understand that when someone is selling or buying Internet access or IP packets people are just taking for granted that that should of course be IPv4 and IPv6 just like Jan from Nokia here said.
So it's more -- it's more like starting to deploy IPv6 when you're doing your normal upgrade cycle it's part of the modernization of the network that you're building or something. Or what did you really reference there?
>> The business case I'm referring to is not actually profiteering it's a business case for the businesses that why should they make the transition in the first place? And the second one is that earlier I believe we didn't have the hardware but when you go into the technical specifications of IPv6 you actually have the upgradability to do it. But there's certain equipment and certain software already available in the Pakistan market as well which can be deployed for that but it's more at the bottom thrust -- technical thrust at the bottom level at the technical level to take this forward.
>> PATRIK FALTSTROM: Okay. So Adiel and Paul quickly or did you have an add-on to this.
>> I did have a follow-up from the Pakistan hub and they wanted to put the question to the panelists from different countries if their upstream providers are IPv6 ready or if other people are running into this problem directly.
>> PATRIK FALTSTROM: In Sweden there's IPv6 ready. Dual stack, yes, all of the major ones.
>> So yeah I think the business case issue always comes up. And from what I'm aware IPv6 is discussed. So my thinking is that the business case is very simple as continuing to provide Internet services. It's as simple as that. IPv6 will allow to be able to continue to have those unique identifier which allow devices to connect to the Internet.
Now, companies who already have IPv4 deployed why do they have to move from IPv4 if their network is moving on IPv4 the problem is IPv4 and IPv6 are not compatible they are two different protocols is if you want to connect IPv6 you have to run IPv6. If you want to connect to IPv4 you will run IPv4 you cannot run them dual stack so it's purely a business continuation matter IPv6 deployment it's not a new service, it's a protocol on top of which we will add service. So I think that profitability aspect I guess I should say will come later but that's a real case.
>> PATRIK FALTSTROM: So we are starting to get people at the microphones here and I know Paul has been waiting a little bit. But I also think that we should go around over the panel. And people can say what the status is in their country just like I did for Sweden.
So Paul, start with you.
>> PAUL RENDEK: Okay. I think the question about user demand is really important. I think we all know that Internet services come in many different shapes and sizes and colors. And we're not just talking here about having a dialup or a DSL or a cable connection into your home or your business. If you look across the entire econet ecosystem you have Internet service providers providing expertise you have users relying on trained staff on consultants on advice and you have software and hardware at all sorts of different levels and ISPs relying on each other for instance relying on upstream connections and every one of those is kind of a user service provider relationship and what we are asked repeatedly is what can any individual do? A business, a Government or individual person. What can anyone do to promote IPv6 uptick? And the question is:
Well talk to your service provider. Whoever they are, whether they are your consultants. Whether they are your hardware providers. Whether they are your upstream ISPs and find out now what is their plan for IPv6. And the question is really as simple as that as long as you pursue the answer the question is quite simple and it's particularly important in Government procurement processes governments planning any form of Internet related services or ICT services at all can ask what is the plan for v6? When is v6 going to be available as part of your service and I think that's a really important thing for stimulation of awareness, stimulation of capacity within that service providing population. It's something we have spoken about quite a lot for instance within the APTEL group where APNIC has also been very active and apnic.tel has adopted a goal for ubiquitous broadband deployment by 2013 and what we have repeatedly emphasized there that goal doesn't mean too much unless you're deploying or explicitly asking for IPv6 at the same time because we know we want have a way forward.
>> PATRIK FALTSTROM: A comment, Olivier please present yourself as well.
>> OLIVIER MJ CREPIN-LEBLOND: I'll try to be quick I've been quite a few of these IPv6 conferences we are always wondering why there's no uptick in IPv6. Sorry. Olivier Crepin-Leblond. ISOC England and also ISOC ambassador so we have been to quite a few IPv6 conferences and discussions like this and there's always a question as to why there's no uptick in the traffic and that's because there's actually no web site out there that's got content on IPv6. There's very little of it so what we have done at ISOC England and thanks to an ISOC community grant or local community grant that we have received from them, we have put together an IPv6 crawler which effectively looks at the -- well takes the list of the largest Web sites out there so we took the Alexa list of 1 million largest Web sites and it starts crawling through them and find out if they are on IPv6 dual stack if TCPIP e-mail works on v6 et cetera and we found out there's very few sites out there it still beats the testing mode so I won't give the actual web site address which gives results out but if you're interested you can come see me afterwards.
>> JAN ZORZ: Yeah, from Nokia Siemens networks again I want to say first of all that I come from Finland and most of the upstream providers provider IPv6 if not all already and there would be questions more about the access than the upstream. But I wanted to come back a little bit to the business case thing. And though that it's an old question I think it's a valid question still that what is the business case. And what Adiel said I think is very, very important. It's the business case of continuation. If you don't have v6 in a couple of years, you will be out of business. You're not able to grow as much as you want. And people are already feeling that quench in their IP Version 4 address space. The other thing is that a lot of the things are already ready. Like what Jan showed for instance that they could deploy IP Version 6 just like that and the thing is also that I don't claim that it would be easy to deploy IP Version 6 I'm just saying it's not hard and the thing is if you haven't deployed IP Version 6 soon or don't start now you don't have a good argument or good excuse to your management in a couple of years when they ask why haven't you do that so it's time to start for those people who haven't started yet.
>> PATRIK FALTSTROM: Thank you. Dennis, you wanted to -- do you want to say something, as well? You've been waiting a little bit.
>> DENNIS JENNINGS: Dennis Jennings, from Ireland. And speaking personally although I am also a member of the Board. And I'm an ignoramus in this area. But I am talking to the IPv6 people in Ireland. I'm talking to the department. I'm trying to think about this. And it always comes down particularly in an economy like in Ireland which is in a downturn where everybody is concerned not about growing their businesses but about surviving, where is the motivation? So let me ask some questions? As an end user, what new service I can access that makes me want to implement IPv6 now? If I was an ISP and I know some of them, they will say: What new services can I offer to my customers that will make them want to buy me rather than somebody else.
When I talk to the Government: That's all very well, Dennis, we realise there's a crisis coming but right now budgets are tough. What do we have to say that will allow me to put money now into IPv6 rather than next year's budget.
And I don't have answers.
So those are my questions.
>> PATRIK FALTSTROM: Good. And I think this is something we should give to the panelists. But just because we know each other maybe it's the case that you also have something you would like to add or something different before we go back to the panelist.
>> Maybe so my question is even more fundamental than Dennis'. Because it's asking about the viability of the dual stack strategy. In other words assume all of Dennis' questions are answered and people adopt IPv6 or implement it even though it's basically doubling their cost in some sense. That still means that as dual stack expansion of the Internet requires the use of additional IPv4 addresses. So the question I have is: How do you get to the point where you can turn off the IPv4? If you have to expand the Internet three or four times from where it is now by adding dual stack, where do those addresses come from on the IPv4 side. If they come from anywhere how do we -- why don't we stop expanding anyway. I don't understand how the dual stack strategy works.
>> PATRIK FALTSTROM: Do you want to take that? Adiel, please.
>> ADIEL AKPLOGAN: I think your question -- the question about the business case is exceptional. The dual stack is to allow as we said before the fact that we can talk to each other so the transition is for dual start which will allow time for a majority of the network to be IPv6 ready so there is the two protocols. But what will happen is slowly people will start should get down IPv4 and that's where the catch is if you don't move to IPv6 and you are not IPv6 ready when people start should get down the IPv4 part of their network you won't be able to access the site which will be IPv6 only so what will happen is that slowly IPv6 will take over in terms of the amount of IP and amount of service that provides IPv4 and at that time IPv4 will not be there so the dual stack will not stay forever it will just help the transition so that it happens smoothly.
That's why the planning is very important. So that's one of the case. Why do we do it now? It's doing it now because you are sure that you can access any kind of web site which provides IPv6 information.
>> PATRIK FALTSTROM: Jan, do you want to say something to that.
>> JAN ZORZ: Yes, about dual stack stuff. I've been actively involved in sort of thinking of it and solving this problem. Yes, dual stack will work until the v4 space depletes. Then dual stack at least on a v4 card will not be able to grow.
So at that point in time we will start entering the huge base of 3GN that's carrier grade now that we don't want to do. That's complete breakage of the Internet.
On the other hand we are trying to think of some sharing of IP address between CPEs mechanism. That's A + P as with randy and Nokia and Juniper and other guys.
So we have two solutions that are hacks. And we will need to decide at some point in time in -- which is lesser evil. So we have to provide v4 connectivity for a long time. Because translation is even bigger evil.
So pick your poison. Thank you.
>> PATRIK FALTSTROM: Yeah, I must -- yeah, I would like to jump in myself before Constanze here. I'm a little bit nervous when I hear should get off IPv4. Because what I heard is instead that we will have dual stack when IPv6 is deployed and then it will happen that we will see IPv6 only nodes deployed. To me that's not should get off IPv4 but that means those nodes can only be reached from nodes that are running IPv6. Now we do have some application player application layer features already today in the protocol like mail servers, DNS servers and as long as they are dual stack you can have an IPv6 only client communicate with an IPv4 only client because both of them can talk to the dual stack server.
So if you look at from an application layer perspective, I am not so nervous but I definitely see dual stack being deployed by turning on IPv6 in parallel with IPv4 but then over time you will see nodes getting added that are only IPv6 and then we have the question that Jan talked about, okay, given that we have a node that is IPv6 only, should it be possible in that case how for that IPv6 only node to communicate directly on IP layer with an IPv4 only node I think that's what people are talking about and the brutal truth might be no I'm sorry that's not possible there are two different protocols as Adiel said and because of that the implementation of IPv6 is important. Constanze and then Nurani.
>> CONSTANZE BURGER: Sorry I'm a little bit late but I think to think over the comments and to order my ideas. The first answer -- my opinion to your thing is we in Government network infrastructure will provide next year's v4, v6 because we are slowly -- we are very slowly. And the traffic in v6 is slowly coming up.
And just the background, why we made this decision, first we wanted to get rid of net. And we are closed -- we have a closed shop. And we have infrastructure -- we could connect the end user and nobody cares about it's v4 or v6. It's a very good situation for governments.
We want to connect with the world without barriers. That's very important stand or factor to looking for some new business cases. And new technologies. There's one example.
We have the first address block allocated or assigned to Hamburg a part of a country in Germany. And they are going to make Voice over IPv6. And they are going to roll out 150,000 telephone users.
These are small steps. But I think they are important. Because we want to make end-to-end implementation. Lorezno told one time this will be the killer application. That you can talk to each other. And the next one -- the question, there was the question after the business cases in our countries.
I can say in my experience, there's just a business case for the bigger companies or Government. But not for the end user. You can't get native v6 from the ISPs now. I think just there's a small ISP providing native IPv6 in Germany. And this is a peer situation. Yeah, thank you.
>> PATRIK FALTSTROM: Nurani.
>> NURANI NIMPUNO: Nurani Nimpuno, Autonomica. I'm happy we went back to Ms. Burger because I wanted to bring the question back actually to the level of governments. I think we discussed -- we've heard good example of what Internet service providers have done themselves. And I think good examples as well of RIRs providing training courses I found the MENOG example very interesting not only targeting technical people at operation levels but actually reaching out to governments and training them. And I think that's a great initiative.
Since this is a multistakeholder forum and most of the people on the panel are from the technical community, I actually wanted to bring it back to the Government community, so to speak.
I think Ms. Burger's presentation was excellent. It was a very good example of what a Government can do to really push for the development of IPv6 in your country.
I think as a precursor for services putting out IPv6 as a criteria is a very powerful tool to push for for IPv6. You partly answered my question but I would like to hear other pieces of advice to share with governments of what role governments can play to push for the implementation of IPv6.
>> CONSTANZE BURGER: I think we have two roads. And they are in the right meeting with two hats on. And the first are using the addresses. And we have the needs of vendors and ISPs and services. But there's nothing. And the advisors, there's nothing, too.
There's no -- I share your experience. The hurdles are very less experienced than the sector.
So I go as -- I go out as a user and say: We are a big market. We have a big market potential in the Government. I think we have 17 billion euros per year asking every year in IT infrastructure -- in western -- in infrastructures in the Government -- in the . . . public administration for Germany. Sorry.
And this is the one thing. And the other -- the other side is the role of the Government as a pusher for development and technical stuff. And I'm convinced because I heard so many technical specialists that IPv6 is the one thing we can just with this protocol survive.
In Asia, in the Asia parts, it's common. Much more here. And I think it's necessary to serve it. So I think in mobile business or health care or eGovernment we can offer some more services to the public. And there will be coming up the needs. And we can make some business cases, security cases and all the politics are combined with this protocol.
So I think it's a political thing. And operational thing to deploy IPv6.
>> PAUL RENDEK: I can't speak on behalf of any Government in the Middle East or anything like that but what I can say if I'm taking a look at what MENOG has meant to achieve it's very careful in making sure the regulator or national Ministry of telecommunications of that particular country is invited to that MENOG meeting they are put on the spot with what's happening with v6 in their country I know a recent success story that's happened out of a MENOG meeting we had in Lebanon was that all five of the ISPs that are operating in Lebanon currently that are appearing at the Beirut Internet exchange were all the given the IPv6 allocation and it appeared at that exchange point over IPv6 in fact I think that's the first time that's ever happened in any Middle Eastern country and I think some of the neighbors of Lebanon definitely raised their eyebrows when they saw that happen after that MENOG meeting took place there.
After that there was a meeting that happened in Saudi Arabia. The same happened. Allocations were made and the Government was asked what they were going to do their IPv6 initiative is very strong in Saudi Arabia. And I know that they are leading also the way there.
With the upcoming meetings that are happening in Turkey and in Syria, I think the same thing is planned if I'm looking at the MENOG agendas they are also inviting the ministries along the regulators working with them and actually wanting to deploy v6 to those interested in deploying that so that's an example of Government and technical community kind of coming together and doing that.
>> PATRIK FALTSTROM: Thank you very much. And for the record as the moderator of the project I made a mistake that was Paul Rendek speaking. Please.
>> Yes. I'm Uba Chetna (phonetic). I'm a German Government representative and I just wanted to ask Constanze in this regard I work with the German Ministry of economics. And I share the other side of the Government. And yes, I just want to recall the situations that we are in a private sector led model and we respect private initiatives in this regard.
And therefore, I think the role of the Government is really restricted to it's core role as Constanze showed us to -- it would be procuring our own resources, that we go a step forward.
And the other way is to work as a coordinator, just give some awareness raising. But I don't think we have a role outside of this model.
This would lead us to a situation where we have to have some legal binding laws that force this private sector to introduce. And this is something that I would really not like in this context. And therefore I hope that we will be able to come to a situation where IPv6 and IPv will be introduced very swiftly. Thank you.
>> PATRIK FALTSTROM: Thank you very much. And we are coming to the -- let's see. Towards the end of this session. Yes, please.
>> CONSTANZE BURGER: I didn't answer your ideas.
>> PATRIK FALTSTROM: Constanze.
>> CONSTANZE BURGER: Your comment was there were no more Web sites seen -- two less IPv6 Web sites seen, yes, for the Government part I can answer that's not our problem. The Web sites come later. The problem is deeper.
My colleagues from my municipalities, they join the Working Groups. They are telling me the Web sites is a service I can care about next year. But the first problem I have, I don't want renumbering. And if I have a new situation. A new politic or a new law or something like that in this case, they have to renumber their systems. And in every development they are going to be crazy. And therefore, we want to order our net infrastructure. And it's a main thing to organise them structured and hierarchal after the normal rules of Internet and this thing is very important I think. And I think then coming up some services and new Web sites from our point.
>> PATRIK FALTSTROM: Yes, Jan. You've got the last word. You get the ability to say the last words here for this session.
>> JAN ZORZ: Okay. Thanks. About the content going to IPv6. Let's have a look at -- there was a URL go6.si/proposal. This is the proposal that proposes the modification of the search engine result page. And we think this might be a big push for content providers go to v6. Because we are creating again attention between the competitors. If they deploy v6 they will be higher ranked than their competitor. That does not provide the v6. And lots of search engine optimization experts will run to the content providers saying: There is a new mechanism how you can go up in the ranking. It's called v6. We don't know what this is. You need to find out.
But if you deploy this, your page will go up. And please, create a discussion. And if you have the reach to the Internet search engines like Bing or something else, please point them out our proposal and press them to deploy this.
>> PATRIK FALTSTROM: And with those words, thank you very much, everyone, for coming and a big thanks to the panelists.
(Session ended at 1327)