The use of a new gTLD for community engagement, advocacy and development

9 November 2012 - A Workshop on Critical Internet Resources in Baku, Azerbaijan

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11:00 AM

WS 122




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>> RINALIA ABDUL RAHIM:  Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, let's begin.  My name is Rinalia Abdul Rahim, I am a member of the At?Large Advisory Committee.  I am the moderator.  I would like to introduce you to key individuals, first Bianca Ho, please wave, she is the timekeeper.  Panellists, please take note, when you reach your time limit, she will stand up and give you that paper and start waving her hands wildly if you exceed that time limit.  There's also another young lady who is helping us with time limits. 

Welcome to workshop number 122, New Generic Top?Level Domains, Community Engagement for Advocacy and Development and Organized by ICANN APRALO.  Let me set context for this workshop.  In June of last year ICANN launched its new Top?Level Domain programme and in June of this year they released the results of this programme which basically amounts to close to 2000 applications, out of these applications only 4% are classified as community related.  Now, there is some overlap with geographic names and there is also some overlap with IDN's, but if you add geographic names to the community cluster it only comes up to 7% and if you add all of IDN's, which are not necessarily community related or geographic related, they come up to less than 13%.  The number is not large.

So there is clearly a low uptake of new gTLDs for communities, and this could be due to lack of awareness about the gTLD programme itself.  But for community in particular, it is possible that the value proposition of generic Top?Level Domains is not well understood and there are barriers for uptake.  This workshop is intended to explore what is the value and the opportunities associated with generic Top?Level Domains and if there is a value and an opportunity, what are the challenges for starting up and for sustainability.  And also what are the solutions of how do we overcome the challenges.  Today there is a group of speakers who will help us understand the issues based on their experiences, there are basically two groups, the first group represent communities who have applied for generic Top?Level Domains, we have Edmon Chung representing DotAsia, Yannis Li representing DotKids, Andrei Kolesnikov, coordinates DotKids with that.  Scott Seitz who represents DotGay, other panellists when they come in I'll introduce later.  The second group of panellists are basically community members who will share their from thoughts on issues.  Cheryl Langdon?Orr from Australia, and Olga Cavali if she shows up, from Argentina.  Edmon Chung we'll start with who has ten minutes to give you a basic introduction about the new gTLD programme and highlight the issues from his point of view and then the other presenters in the community group will have five minutes to basically articulate their issues and point of view as well and for each of these panellists, they will describe their before TLD initiative, what community they intend to serve, how they engage the community if at all, how it helps advocacy, engagement and what are the challenges and benefits.  Edmon?

>> EDMON CHUNG:  Thank you, Rinalia, thank you ?? thank you, Rinalia, thank you, everyone, for joining.  I'll talk a little bit about I guess the background that what we are talking about, not just on the new gTLD programme but focusing a little bit more on the community applications and then I will share a little bit about the I guess experience with DotAsia, us being one of the existing new gTLDs that are I would say community based.  As Rinalia mentioned, I think most people know, there's been a long process about new gTLDs even before 1998 all the way to now, 2012, but just a quick look back at the history, sort of the preICANN period, these are sort of the gTLDs that we're talking about, and they're in dot com, dot net, dot org and a few others, and some of them are open, some of them are more for certain communities as well.  The real test of this sort of particular programme started actually in 2000 when ICANN received actually at that time around 50 applications for new gTLDs and 7 were approved or selected, out of which there were actually a few of them were community, I would say, has some community aspect to it, and they were called sponsored TLD's, like DotArrow, DotCo?op, and DotMuseum, and in 2004 another round of new gTLDs came along, and there were actually ten applications, ten applicants for that particular round and eight of which were selected.  All these are called sponsored, what is called sponsored gTLDs, and the reason why I bring this up is because this has a very tight relationship, I guess, with what we now call community?based TLD's, and sponsored gTLDs means really sponsored community, the community for which they try to serve as well.

So right now, what we're talking about today, on the Internet there are about 280 TLD's delegated, and we're looking at a pretty big expansion, since, as Rinalia mentioned, in June, and ICANN went forward with the gTLD programme.  Most of the TLD's are ccTLD's, country code Top?Level Domains, a very small sliver of that is gTLDs, but in the future the difference, the biggest difference is that there will be a huge chunk level domain and as Rinalia actually mentioned, about 2000 of which, talking about 1400 new Top?Level Domain possibilities and then one of the first factors that immediately coming to attention is the distribution of these TLD's in terms of the applicants, in terms of geographic imbalance, if you will.  We looked at it in terms of the numbers from North America, Europe, Asia?Pacific, Latin America, and Africa, if you look at purely where the application came from, there is about 47% that's coming from North America, but if you add back a number of them that are actually utilizing entities outside of North America but actually representing essentially North American companies, we add back about 280 of them, and you reach to almost 70%, almost 70% is coming from the North America region.

The other thing about, you know, that jumps out in terms of statistics are that the major applicants are occupying a pretty big space.  The top five alone represents about 30% of the number of applications.  And of course it brings back to the focus of today's topic, which is the very small sliver of applications that are community?based.  Here you see another aspect that jumped up was that a lot of brands are coming on board as new TLD's, but there are only really 4% of what is called community applications, and here are the 84 of them that are posted here.  As Rinalia also mentioned, a good chunk of them are actually gTLD's, 7 of them are ITLD's, four of them are from the cath lack, from the Vatican, essentially, so his is what we're seeing in terms of the new gTLD applications.

And we only have three applicants coming in for financial support.  And one of the things I want to bring out is how the new gTLD process defines community and there are really two aspects of it, one of which is from the earlier rounds which we called sponsored community, we've moved to call it a community priority, and there are a number of criterias.  There are a number of criterias, which you have to meet in terms of the applications, community establishment, nexus, policies, community endorsements, and you have to, you know, get these points sort of to pass.

The other big aspect would be the joint applicant support programme that was put in place by a lot of effort.  In fact, since 2010, tirelessly have been working on the programme through 2010 until September 2011 when the final report was put in place.  Eventually it was imply minted at its financial assistance process and there were also a point system, three particular aspects, one of which is public interest benefit, the other one is financial need and then financial capability.

I think one of the things I want to highlight is that a lot of these requirements is essentially ?? a lot of these requirements actually is very complicated and also that's where I wanted to bring our experience from DotAsia in sort of a lot.  DotAsia ourselves was started, in fact, the whole idea was started in the year 2000 when the community around Asia talked about this and it was a pretty long process for which until we participated in the 2004 round of new gTLDs and then through the process we have sort of grown in a way, but one of the highlights I want to bring out, when DotAsia put in the application for DotAsia, we had only nine members in 2004, in 2006 we grew to 20 members.  2010, 28 members.  This year we're up to 30 members.  One of the key aspects is that the requirement for the new gTLD process is you need to have community endorsement out of the gate.  But if we're talking about community engagement and community development, a lot of times the community doesn't come together until it is real, until there is a DotAsia, members will not join, that's the reality of it, and that is one of the things that is, I think, very important to point out in terms of the new gTLD process.

Coming to the other point is that for DotAsia ourselves, besides it being a registry, a not for profit knowing a not for profit organisation, to develop (inaudible) around Asia, another is to bring the collaborative spirit of Internet community around Asia, leverage that to other things, economic growth and development of the region itself, this is something that is sort of beyond just running the registry, just running the TLD as a domain registry, we hope to provide a sort of canvas or a breeding ground for new initiatives around Asia and to bring out the collaborative spirit.  Since the launch of DotAsia, we have been able to put in place a lot of different projects, for example, we're supporting the one laptop per child initiative around Asia, we're supporting Information Society Innovations Fund, we have a relief DotAsia programme, and what is important is that the community is responding, it's not just our own efforts, we're seeing Government initiative start using DotAsia domains, development bank of Asia utilizing DotAsia, these are some important aspects that we bring out.  And finally I think sort of to close, one of the important community projects that we put out is sort of an advocacy angle and it's all about Internet governance participation in Asia?Pacific, one of the core projects that we distort of helped put together and also put forward is the regional IGF in Asia?Pacific, and we continue to support it as a Secretariat.  The other one, you've seen young people coming from Hong Kong, from Asia, Net Mission DotAsia is another important initiative that we run.  This year, Net Mission actually created from the Net Mission alumni a programme for secondary school students, called Net Y DotAsia, you'll see a few of them around IGF as well, and another aspect of which is the youth Internet governance Forum camp which also the Net Mission programme created.  So I guess the sort of closing remark is really that as DotAsia, you know, in terms of the experience, we saw that the community, in terms of community engagement, endorsement, development, a lot of which needs to happen after the TLD is in operation and allows us to bring together the community and bring together the resources to do it.  So that's sort of the presentation.  Thank you.

>> RINALIA ABDUL RAHIM:  Thank you, Edmon.  Could you please define what you mean by members of DotAsia?

>> EDMON CHUNG:  DotAsia ourselves is a membership organisation, we're two types of members, one of which is what we call sponsored members, they are the ccTLD operators around Asia, the others are Asia?Pacific regional Internet organisations and they are called co?sponsor members, IPNIC, APIG, a number of different Internet organisations.

>> RINALIA ABDUL RAHIM:  Thank you.  I would like to invite the next speaker, which is Yannis Li from DotKids.

>> YANNIS LI:  Thank you.  Let me briefly introduce DotKids and the DotKids Foundation.  It's a not for profit organisation, we're the only community applicant for DotKids domain.  DotKids domain is a domain for the interests of kids, the best interests of kids.  Who is to say what's the best interests of kids?  It's not only you and me.  If the major target beneficiary, we should include.  According to the United Nations conventions of the rights of child, kids are those who are under 18.  So in order to allow participation, we need a friendly kids friendly environment and also online so they can easily understand what it is going so.  What he mean kids from friendly is not only about kids safe, but something that's relevant and easily understandable by kids, which is their unique needs, but further, that's about further building a better Internet as a whole.  I heard a lot from different workshops and yesterday, it will now be talking about better Internet and also citizenship is not only about protecting them from like some obscene pornography stuff.

So therefore, I would say, so actually, so these are the missions of DotKids that actually based on the guiding principle and we encourage Internet governance and we promote advocate for protecting kids online, and what's more important is it's not only among the DotKids, but it's also the whole Worldwide Web, which should use a kid friendly content also as well, which is more important, the community to work on these various initiatives by channeling back profit to them.  So therefore, actually I was saying UGTLV is a very good opportunity to engage to develop a community.  For instance, there are a few ways how we engage the community.  First of all, DotKids Foundation is a membership consortium, also child organisations around the world.  Right now currently we're still constantly outreaching to different organisations and we keep informing the community about this new gTLD initiative and currently there's some support from Africa, also the Asia region.

So another way how we engage the kids by participation is by having an advisory Council which the Council directly sits into our governance structure and they can comment on how we should operate the DotKids.  So this is how we engage you, the kids, for instance, actually yelled I heard from United Youth Delegations   that in Scandinavian countries, everybody in primary schools got an iPOD, they got a Smartphone device they can use for e?learning, so that's why I want to emphasize how important it is, we have to engage the community in an early stage because it's already a major part of them and they can get online very easily, so we need to let them know how they should behave online.

As that earlier about the advocacy part, actually DotKids 50s can raise the awareness of the students well?being and also the DotKids kid friendly concept around.  DotKids, we actually have a kid friendly content guidelines for all of our registrants.  So we can go on by building the capacity and raise ceilings.  But however, we actually, there are some child interests that we face about the community engagement.  First of all, the trading Centre organisation, actually they care more about life and death circumstances, which is the survival issues of the children, but Internet is not the first priority, so we take some time to really let them understand what is going on, what is new gTLD and stuff, and this is of course very important, but I mean, because Internet right now actually have many problems for kids and related to them, but then it's very important for us to let them know, so the existence of DotKids actually helps this in like promoting this idea to them.  But however, like when we come to the application, when we come to the application side, another challenge I want to raid about the ICANN application process, especially on the financial assistance form which they have to fill out, they mostly highly favor those developing countries, but I want to say that who are developing countries?  On the Internet actually f underdeveloped community and underserved and voices underserved, so we should redefine who is the developing.  Secondly, the application or the applicant I think itself is not to be from developing countries, it should be the beneficiaries they serve.  For example, DotKids, we're just a facilitator and we do not own the domain, we come from the community and we are for the community so I think ICANN should also take this into consideration when they do the evaluation process and, yeah, and I understand it may be difficult for ICANN to reach everybody from a top?down approach, so I think the process is what helps community advocacy development and engagement, thank you.

>> RINALIA ABDUL RAHIM:  Thank you very much, Yannis.  Next I would like to invite Scott Seitz from DotGay.

>> SCOTT SEITZ:  Sorry.  I represent DotGay, LLC, and we are the only community application for DotGay on the Internet.  There are other applications, all of those are business applications.  I don't know why you would start something like this if you couldn't prove a benefit, that's bad business, and we started by realizing that we're committed to creating safety, visibility and support for the gay and lesbian community online and in the world.  We started the process a couple, a little over two years ago, and one of the first things we needed to do is for as much appears you think ICANN regulates the Internet, the gay community regulate each other pretty strictly as well.  So just going out and coming up with a new idea and inventing it and throwing it on the community would have been a major mistake.  We begin by doing town halls all over the country, all over the United States, also throughout England and everywhere there's an ICANN meeting we're actually holding town halls where the community organisations supporting us have been invited to come and bring their friends.  So it's been a good process in addition to our overall website that has transparency for everything that we're doing.  So engaging the community for us was also interestingly easy.  The gay community out of a place of fear and pain actually created several networks around regular things that we would all take for granted, travel, business, as well as human rights, as well as several other areas.  So we were very linked into multiple organisations globally on the human rights front like ILGA as well as in the travel industry, for instance, the International Gay and Lesbian Travel Association which is made up of over 70 Convention and tourism bureaus from over 110 countries.  We also got involved with the international pride organisations, over 200 pride organisations, as well as the global gay and lesbian Chamber of Commerces and employee resource groups that are forming inside of Fortune 500 and many other companies.  We also had outreach to gay and lesbian media.  So as a result now, we're very proud to say that our outreach has ?? we have effectively received endorsement and have now moved our endorsers to advocates, and our advocates include of the 12 United Nations, gay and lesbian, LGBTQUI associations there are only 12 there, we have 9 of them supporting our application.  We have over 130 organisations that are umbrella close to 2,000 other organisations and 8 million members of the gay and lesbian community at this point endorsing and supporting us.  One of the other benefits that I mentioned in addition to safety, visibility and support, I do want to go on to say that even though we are going to be operating as a business, 67% of our profits for domain sales will be going to the DotGay foundation where a global group of nonprofits will direct and determine how that money is spent and placed.  Again, how does the TLD itself help develop for advocacy?  The gay and lesbian community outside of urban markets is largely invisible, making us really easy to ignore by our businesses, our governments and other individuals and institutions.  So by allowing us to be visible through the DotGay location name space on the Internet, we're simply developing a way for our community to be visible without necessarily risking the lives and health of the individuals that are participating.  That sounds weird, so I should explain one other thing.  The first wave we think for DotGay is going to be a business to business wave.  Coming out and being gay is something each individual chooses to do as far as your visibility because you can be harmed, you can not succeed in your business, there are a number of reasons why people choose, family ties, Government ties, et cetera.  So by nature, the people who are first going to be involved in DotGay will be the businesses, so the Chambers of commerce that we mentioned, the travel industry individuals, the people who are already out, already doing advertising, already visible in the community through their Human Rights efforts and not for profit efforts are going to be our first wave.  As that happens, we'll continue to grow our visibility and with that more individuals will also be interested in a DotGay dough mane.

In addition to that, I think what's going to be ?? oh, and time is up.  But very quickly, the other benefit we think DotGay is going to offer is that this is an organisation of people that don't necessarily have traditional means for networking and getting information.  So in addition to the money that we'll be generating for the community, our goal is to hold onto very valuable name space like DotCentre, DotPride, DotHealth, DotLesbian, DotGay, Dot.Transgender, et cetera, to not only make room under the DotGay umbrella for all of the community but also to provide powerful engines in those name spaces or in those domains that would normally be sold at auction for highest price, these are actually going to become hubs for the community to organize and business engines for our not for profits and our businesses.  Thank you.

>> RINALIA ABDUL RAHIM:  Thank you, Scott.  Andrei?

>> ANDREI KOLESNIKOV:  Just a little story about Dot ?? it's translated into DotKids in Russian.  Just a few sentences about the story inform it.  When we realized that it's getting closer to the final steps to open up the gTLD, new gTLD programme in ICANN, we had a little working session in our office and we were improvising about what new domains would be appropriate for Russia, well, along with DotVodka and DotOil and gas, which are obviously the commercial, or maybe brand applications.  Russian Federation.


We decided that it would be really, really interesting if we start a project involving building a friendly Internet for the children, and the reason for that was in the past of our organisation, traditionally, we are a noncommercial organisation DotRu for Russia, we are heavily involved in various projects involving into the various kid friendly projects, for example.  We are traditionally sponsoring scientific research in, for example, kids' behavior on the Internet.  One of the largest ones was European Union survey which will run for two years, I believe building a model of child behavior on the Internet and where a lot of scientific people, it was not like civil society, but it was like a scientific research, the impact on the psychology, the impact on learning, the impact on behavior, so we were traditionally sponsoring these kind of activities.  Also one of our projects, actually related to the Internet governance issues is we've created an online game called learned Internet and Government, especially designed tore the children, well, it came out that this project is also interesting for a lot of state organisations because no one knew actually how the Internet is working, so we're hoping we go beyond the children education, the basic stuff about the Internet, but it was one of our big projects which we picked up about two years ago.  So overall, our are Council of members of our organisation decided that we have to build a company which will apply for the new gTLD DotData, and actually let me introduce, if he's here, he runs the foundation, a noncommercial foundation responsible for the DotData, but of course it goes far beyond just accepting a new gTLD and running it.  Because there are some targets which we set for this company and for this project.  Of course, the number one is apply for the Dot DT and receive it, run it professionally.  Second one is development of the child?specific content and stimulation of its development.  Also we are involving specialists and professionals which are involved in the various kids and child subjects.  Psychologists, doctors, artists making movies, basically our project is targeted to very small childs like starting, I don't know, two years old, going up to 14 or something like that.

Also the main purpose of the project is building the Internet for kids, for the Russian?speaking community.  This is kind of a big target because the main challenge of our project is involving activities, the Government, the businesses, organisations to populate actually the open platform for creating a child?friendly Internet, kind of broad target, but as I said, the gTLD application, which we're talking about today, is a very little part of the big thing which we're doing.  Also it's not a community application, I'm kind of on this table, but we don't consider, unlike our friends which we support each other, actually, DotKids, it's not a community application, because it's a little different environment where people and members of this activity will build kid friendly Internet.  That's it.  Thank you. 

>> RINALIA ABDUL RAHIM:  Thank you, Andrei, it seems there are common threads, there needs to be outreach, awareness raising, engagement of the community before something can be initiated, there were quite a few foundations being set up as mechanisms to handle the new gTLDs.  I have a question for Edmon, you run DotAsia, is there a foundation set up to support or collaborate the expansion of DotAsia?

>> EDMON CHUNG:  DotAsia is the organisation and is the foundation itself, so we ourselves are organized as a not for profit organisation, so the revenue that comes in from domain registrations go directly into community development projects.

>> RINALIA ABDUL RAHIM:  So it seems that for every initiative there is (inaudible) back to the communities.  I would like to ask the second group of panellists to basically add their thoughts to the topic we've been discussing.  Cheryl Langdon?Orr.

>> CHERYL LANGDON-ORR:  Thank you, a couple notes I made, obviously, I have to do build it and they will come because I couldn't possibly not write that down, listening to actually all of the panellists so far.  I was a little interested to hear that there is a huge amount of faith and I can only assume knowledge of the risk associated with what is going into some of these applications, because to take a build it and they will come attitude really means you've got to have a medium term plan and commitment of a successful registry going on for some period of time, as Edmon said, I made a note from DotAsia that it was a six to ten year overnight success.  And I think going in as a community applicant to pitch to potential sponsors and supporters and even Government instrument talents and cold, hard, business people, to suggest that what you're going to have is a 6 to 10 year overnight success is a kind of scary thing, so I think as we're trying to analyze why those very, very sad statistics that Edmon also followed on from Rinalia's introduction where we're talk talking about 4%, stretch it up to 7%, and really if we do what we want to do, we can reach a woo?hoo, 13%, it may not be just a lack of outreach, it may be a lack of first move or willingness and what I think we should be focusing on now and what I would love to see be successful, and I trust they will be successful community applications that are putting gTLD space together for the benefit of specific community and that is why I've pushed IDN's for so long,  it's certainly why I would support community organisations and I'm certainly a card?carrying member of the financial support that we need to give through things like the joint applicant support work out of ICANN, I just wonder whether we should be very cautious as organisations and instrumentalities to ask how we analyze this first lot of numbers, and I believe we need to look at it very, very carefully.  I believe there are partnership opportunities that will come out of this in the not too distant future, and it worries me not because I don't think partnerships are a good idea, on the contrary, I think they're probably a way of getting sustainability in many of these models, but it alters what this consensus built bottom?up concept of new gTLDs and what as a community new gTLD and probably turns it on its head and I for one don't want to go back to basics and build another new gTLD programme and applicant guidebook and I suspect many in this room would join me in that horror, so I think we need to be smart, I think we need to see this as an evolution opportunity, and I don't think we should become too critical of success or failure both in the first round of applicants coming in and in the short?term financial sustainability and robustness of those who are successful and put their gTLDs out for the community.  Thank you, Rinalia.

>> RINALIA ABDUL RAHIM:  Thank you, Cheryl.  Fouad?

>> FOUAD BAJWA:  Thank you, the word developing should be encompassing, even minorities and even groups that are not termed as developing but they have a development aspect to them, because there's a certain level of assistance required, when we touch the word about development, development is basically assistance, development is a process whereby developed countries support developing countries and that is the whole context in development, but then again, as the Internet is happening and the way we are going right now, the way that our community at large, the Internet community in general believes development to be is supporting such initiatives such as DotKids and so forth to evolve.  Now, within this lies another challenge, the challenge which has been laid out.  I come from a developing country which is Pakistan, and for us, I guess I was the only one who actually started discussing the new gTLD programme in the country and getting people to like, you know, use media to send the word out.  But the kind of questions that were coming in were really interesting.  There was a certain group which is asking me, we think that the gTLD programme will actually help us sort of do blanket censorship.  That is a very big question.  This is where the challenge of DotGay comes in, for those societies which are not sensitive to such issues, for them, this presents an opportunity or a challenge that they would be able to implement a Top?Level Domain, blog, they could just do a blanket blog on a certain domain.  Another challenge, an opportunity that somebody was once discussing with me was saying that the previous TLD's which include the top level TLD's, dot org, dot net, provided an opportunity that nobody would be in a position to implement a blanket ban over TLD, so this is another important challenge we will be facing in the near future and this is something we at civil society do believe that it is something which is going to be provoking a lot of discussion.  Another important aspect of the community programme is the outreach aspect, and the outreach aspect means that there has to be more efforts or at least the community should play an even more proactive role to still continue to add voc it, the opportunity of community?based gTLDs, and then why?  Because like economic theories, nonliberallists, liberalists, but the idea behind that is when you try to throw a technology into a region which has not covered the distance of evolution, not the progress of evolution, what happens is you've given them like a bottle of Coke and now they'll be fighting over the Coke bottle, nobody will actually understand what do you do you with the bottle.  So this is what's happening with the new gTLD programme in developing countries.  For some they may be realizing it, for some, for most the opportunity is still misunderstood, the opportunity they're not educated about it.  Where I see DotKids making a very high impact is, I mentioned this yesterday elsewhere on the panel, that for example in my country, like 65% of the new generation is below the age of 24.  And this is why Yannis also makes a point that we are talking about kids who are defined by United Nations terminology as to be below 18 years of age, it gives a very good opportunity to help promote capacity about something that a generation will be opening eyes into, they'll be living in a world which will not be just a dot com or dot org world, it will be a world with dot name, like dot genetic names, and in that context for them, they will see a new, whole new view of the Internet.  But for us who have to fight a long struggle or long battle to getting this programme understood worldwide is going to take us at least ?? I was analyzing the capacity building time required, it will actually take us 7 or 8 years before wide recognition or understanding, before people can break their habit of typing dot com in front of everything, beyond the habit of going beyond Google, search engines will have to be proactive to start including indexes of new names.  There are challenges, we can term these as three levels of challenges.  One is the immediate challenges, I will call them short ?? I don't call them short?term, I call them immediate challenges, you have to plan to respond right now, which is, as Cheryl mentioned, sort of a risk analysis, being ready for the risk and finding short?term and long?term solutions to mitigating those risks.  Thank you.

>> RINALIA ABDUL RAHIM:  Thank you, Fouad.  Next is Olga.

>> OLGA CAVALI:  Thank you very much, Rinalia.  I want to thank the organizers for such an interesting workshop.  It's very diverse.  Thanks for the kind invitation.  DotAsia, I've been following what you do, it's more than a registry, you get involved with the community, young people, everything, young people visiting IGF and different meetings hosted by DotAsia and trained by them, so I think that's really very good and I commend the organisation for that.  I would like to bring a perspective from Latin America where I'm from.  I'm from Argentina.  I do participate in this process being an advisor to the Government of Argentina and also being a university teacher.  I teach networking at the university, I'm an engineer.  So what happened in Latin America, as it was mentioned by Edmon, we had only 24 applications in general, not community applications, all the applications from Latin America were only 24, which I think it's very low.  What has been happening in all this process, Argentina participated in the DotMeetings, I am the representative for Argentina and have been present in these meetings since 2006, and following, and we supported this process and we supported the opening of the new gTLD space.  We also had some concerns and we raised that in the Governmental Advisory Committee in the early stages of this discussion about what could happen with relevant names of regions, names of mountains, rivers, sub regions that could be taken or captured by this process and there was a moment that we thought building a big list but finally that didn't happen because it was really difficult to manage and we realized that that was true.  So finally the guideline is what the guideline is now, and we are here.  What happens now?  We have almost 2000 applications, very few from Latin America.  I can assure you, I have explained this process, and what is a TLD, in every meeting conference I had the opportunity to.  I am a teacher not only in the university, I have prepared papers that I was represented in University of Buenos Aires, also talked with the Government, we organized meetings in the ministry for all the community with ICANN explaining and with the local Chamber explaining the purpose, which is the value of new gTLDs, but the question we had in return was what's the purpose, why should I?  Why a new gTLD?  You have to analyze this question when you realize that what happens in the region, the region has very low intermediation for Internet domain names.  Argentina has only one active register, Latin America has less than ten, which is a very big region.  The register has a value in terms of intermediation because I think it educates the customer in how to deal with Internet names and it has a broader offer and beyond the dot com, there are other options, that's the first step to understand what's a TLD and what's the purpose and value of a TLD and I think that the region is lacking this intermediation, so the outreach and the comprehension of the value of domain names is a little bit behind.  So what we have now, now we have some value, very important community names taken by commercial brands as proposed TLD's, like the example of Patagonia or some others.  Now, the community realizes that we have a problem, and say what happen?  So the bad thing is that these names are in danger, and the good thing is that the community now knows what is a TLD.  If you check the comments made in the TLD space in ICANN, the TLD, the string with more comments, it's Patagonia with more than 1,100 comments is far and away the one with most comments.  The Patagonia people reacted and they are worried.  Now the governments of Latin America reacted and now they know what is a TLD.  Bad side and good side as everything in life.  So just to finalize, and I don't want to take much time, I think that communities are starting now in our region realizing what is a TLD, so perhaps a new round, we'll do better, and also using the facilities ?? the things that are in the ICANN process for helping the communities in applying for TLD's.  We do hope ??


(Internet interruption)

>> Thinking about community needs carefully, I would like to throw this question to all the panellists and also to the audience if you have something to contribute on this topic in terms of what are the challenges of defining the community?  Cheryl, you have your hand up.

>> CHERYL LANGDON-ORR:  Thank you, I think that definition of community is hugely important and they're going to in my view sort themselves into easier piles and far more complicated ones.  A perfect example on the panel today where it's a clear and more easily bound community.  


>> This question here that we do need to not give the impression that all things have to be dealt with at this top level but there's still opportunity in ccTLD, in the community I'm involved with, it's one of the few that have dealt with geographics, we actually have every addressable local Australia wide.  We work with our geographic Council, it is our list, and if you ask ??

(Internet interruption)

>> EDMON CHUNG:  It's very interesting because if you look back at the history, we had a remedial round actually previously as well and DotAsia was created in that round; those are the experimental rounds.  And that I think is an important thing.  In the context of Internet, actually for both the community requirements, we tend to look at fixed boundaries and geographic boundaries and that kind of thing and in the Internet context that is again another kind of constraint we put in to manage this round of process, but at future rounds we might be able to relax that a bit more and let the communities in.

>> RINALIA ABDUL RAHIM:  Thank you, Edmon.  Yannis wants to chime in, but before that, I wanted to let the room know that you can also participate and ask your questions or give your thoughts on what's been discussed.  Thank you.  Yannis?

>> YANNIS LI:  I just want to make a few points.  Referring to what Cheryl said earlier, all communities need a TLD to serve, I want to say that some community really needs special needs, like they have special requirement or they need special facilitations, for example, DotKids, according to the approximate United Nations, they really need special facilitation in different aspects to understand different things and he have the right to participate on the Internet as well and they need to express themselves, so I want to say in this case, it's really a community that needs a TLD.  For example, imagine you're a kid, like you don't know where to go for Internet, where is a safe place for you to go, so if there is DotKids existed, then you can easily know where to go and you will have your information there, and also regarding the boundary issues, I do understand it is somehow difficult to bound what should be a community, but I think what Edmon said is really good that it is about collaborative effort, so I would say DotKids is a focal point for the people of organisations to understand and to get their attention on this new gTLD thing and how they can engage in this Internet discussion and this dialogue.  So yes, that's what I wanted to say is about collaborative effort and we can get more different people, not just the kids to participate but also the highly related stakeholders like the parents and other organisations, teachers and all the others, thank you.

>> RINALIA ABDUL RAHIM:  Thank you, Yannis.  You also wanted to chime in on this?

>> SCOTT SEITZ:  Yeah, there's about ten topics going on here at one time.  Let me just focus in on a couple of them specifically as they pertain to DotGay.  The most important benefit we start with this community is having DotGay at the table such as meetings today.  Civil society does a lot to protect the rights of gay and lesbian people, we often don't get the information back to the community as to what's really going on.  DotGay has become an advocate for the community and we're letting our supporters understand what's going on here and creating visibility for the gay community, which is where it will all get started from.  Secondly to the rallying to a flag point, absolutely true.  DotGay is an umbrella organisation, and we believe there is a benefit to the second level domain as Cheryl mentioned, that benefit is by not selling it and by holding onto those key areas for our community and providing that space, we're a community, in '96 when I first started working in the gay and lesbian marketplace as a business person, I would get phone calls during Gay Pride where people were going, why are there so many gays now?  Well, there are not so many gays now, they are visible now, and that's the big point.  So this will become the flag and the rallying point, if you will, for the gay community, and we're going to do our best to make sure that we reserve as many possible names as we can think about and then some by inviting the community to participate in this, and they have.  So the second level is very important and not to be ignored.  There's also, you know, I think one of the other things that everybody we know we should be trying to do as we create a benefit for the community is understand ?? or I'll talk about an area of censorship.  Believe it or not, for as many people that are worried about DotGay as being one big porno site, I'm more worried about the general market and the rest of the world out there that's going to prevent some 15?year?old from finding good healthy correct information about being a gay?lesbian, bi, transgendered, intersexed, an advocate to this community and more.  As we peel back the onion and learn more about ourselves and as censorship moves forward, I'm more worried about getting the right kind of information to these kids, because right now conservative organisations are very much in place in trying to get poor information to those folks.  In the U.S.,  and I don't know if this number is a global number as well, but in all the studies over the last 15 years, the studies on teenage suicide, over 30% of teenage suicide is directly related to sexual orientation, that number hasn't changed in the 15 years that I've been in the gay community doing marketing and understanding these numbers and working with those organisations, so censorship is an issue for us as well.  Thank you.

>> RINALIA ABDUL RAHIM:  Thank you.  Are there any questions from the floor?  Yes?  Microphone, please.  Can we have a microphone?

>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Hi, Steve with NetChoice.  I want to pick up on Edmon's comment about smooth failures because the Internet culture is all about experimentation, the right to succeed but also the right to fail and if a failure were to occur after you've built up a TLD the registrants suffer the most and the ICANN plan was to be able to redelegate that Top?Level Domain to somebody else or potentially to run it themselves and I wondered what you meant by failing and whether the notion of protecting registrants is there because a lot of registrants being disappointed could shed a very bad light on the entire gTLD expansion making it much harder to do a remedial round or another round later on, so we all have a joint interest in having this programme go well while acknowledging that it's very expensive to run a TLD, Cheryl talked about the costs for the technical, those are a fraction of the costs you have to build in marketing and advertising to build the brand awareness.  If these begin to go under, I think we have to think about the implications for that.

>> RINALIA ABDUL RAHIM:  Thank you, Steve, can I just invite more questions from the floor for the panellists, if there are any?  Yes.  Mary Law.

>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Thank you.  Speaking about the DotGay community, obviously it's a positive thing that it's an opportunity to have more visibility in the online world for a specific community, but I'm thinking about the dark side of it, in the sense that DotGay is in the face of the gay community, and you mentioned more conservative characters, and them thinking censorship, it will be easier for a Government to identify and to block and to censor DotGay than individuals that browse on the online world within a specific community that's identified itself as promoting or ?? do you know what I mean?  It I don't know if I'm being clear.  Being of a specific community.

>> Do you want me to comment?

>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  That worries me.

>> RINALIA ABDUL RAHIM:  One more question from the gentleman in front, then one more, then I'll get the panellists to reply.

>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Thank you.  I'm sorry if you've already addressed this issue, I just arrived a little bit late.  I appreciate some insight on this, even if you've already done that.  My question is how do you get your own dot something, let's say, you have DotAsia and DotKids, how you can get your own?  And what's the relationship between ICANN and the people who have these Top?Level Domain names?  Do they own it?  Are they for profit?  Not for profit?  How is it?  And what's the relationship between ICANN? 

>> RINALIA ABDUL RAHIM:  Thank you.  One more, then I have to come back to the panel.

>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  My name is Yavil, I want to follow up.  My personal view is that we should not have too much pressure on this new issue, because for me personally, the number from the region, how many applicants, is not an issue for me, me as a user, because most of the time, when some applicant we are advocating for community, at the same time we are concerned about the cost, and then he said something, we have to also care about all the technical implications because I can be a community to have my domain, if I want to have (inaudible) for my last name, there are other technical implications.  That implies that we need to go slowly, and then even for the intermediary round, we need to, as people suggested before, to have an assessment.  So the point is that the good one is that people, there is some awareness from this programme, people know that gTLD is very important, but at the same time they're bringing an issue for users.  Two months ago somebody was (inaudible) his domain name, dot com, I advised him to instead DotOf.  Somebody took the name DotOf.  Normally one domain name will have to take maybe ten or twenty domain name at the same time, just in doing redirection to protect his domain.  So it is an issue for the user at the same time because when I'm getting one domain, I may have to get three or four more, that I think potentially could make it to block me in the future.  So it's a very important programme that we should from this one make an assessment and before a second intermediary round before make this decision.  But anyway, it's a very good programme, bringing awareness, people know about the importance of having a domain name.  Thank you.

>> RINALIA ABDUL RAHIM:  Thank you.  Edmon, a quick response on smooth failures.

>> EDMON CHUNG:  Thank you.  So Steve, I guess I'm talking to both, I'm talking about the current process which moves it to some other operator which the concept of which is to run a TLD perpetually essentially, right?  That is the sort of level of risk that we're willing to tolerate.  What I'm saying is that we should allow a level of risk that is even further.  We should allow TLD's to wrap it up, you know, to take it out completely.  But we need a process to do that.  We have the sunrise, for instance, we talked so much about it, but what about a sunset process?  Yes, the biggest impact would be the registrants who have invested their brand or whatever, their operations and all that into the domain, but there are TLD's that have, you know, sort of faded away in the past, like I guess DotSu, it's still in there, but I mean, you can wind it down over time.

>> It's pretty healthy.

>> EDMON CHUNG:  Right.  So but DotYu and those kind of things, but what I really mean is that if we can develop a sunset process, you know, maybe it might be a ten?year process, right?  Because right now the most number of years you can register a domain for is ten years, under ICANN, gTLD rules.  So maybe you won't allow renewals anymore for, you know, the next two years, you know, over a period of time that the TLD can fade away.  So that's what I mean by gracefully letting it fail, and if we talk about as if a TLD fails, it moves to another operator and you force that operator to operate it perpetually, that's not quite letting it fail in a way.  So I think that's sort of the concept that I wanted to bring up.


>> EDMON CHUNG:  Sorry, I just want to add one more point.  I apologize for this gentleman, when I first started the discussion and overview, I did not talk about the new gTLD process and how to apply through the ICANN process and the agreements with ICANN, because at that point when I surveyed the room, most of the people seemed to have some knowledge about it.  But after the panel, I'm more than happy to answer those questions.

>> RINALIA ABDUL RAHIM:  Scott, on the dark side?




>> SCOTT SEITZ:  Briefly.  Brief is difficult for me.  Censorship is a clear issue, in many, many ways, as well as blocking.  One of the good things that came out of the Toronto meeting for ICANN was a discussion that blocking actually if that's being done, there are technical issues that could surface for the countries doing it, so I'm very hopeful that that means that they have to fall back on what they're already doing, which is utilizing, you know, different softwares to block names.  Make no mistake, the software out there blocking names right now is incredibly effective, so if somebody wants to block gay?lesbian, bi, transgendered, bisexual or anything, it's already getting blocked, so this whole other layer is less concerning to me I think again because we can become an advocate for the community, our goal and our need is to be very vigilant inside of organisations like this to find ways to make sure we have security, safety and ways for people to get good information, you know, we would look at ways for us to build a site specifically for information for young people that would be trusted, that would be reviewed by medical and psychological associations worldwide and be a place where any adult would be comfortable if they're comfortable to send their child there.

>> RINALIA ABDUL RAHIM:  Thank you.  I would like to bring the discussion back to the issue of sustainability, and Olga raised a point of the importance of availability of registrars in proximity of where you are, and in the IG for the plenary dot PR person raised the point that you need local partners to distribute the names to be successful and perhaps vertical integration could be a solution, and vertical integration as far as I understand is the cross?ownership between registries and registrars, so is this a solution?  Can the panel address this question?

>> CHERYL LANGDON-ORR:  Cheryl here.

>> RINALIA ABDUL RAHIM:  Sorry, Cheryl first, then Olga.

>> CHERYL LANGDON-ORR:  Thank you.  As a young survivor of the vertical integration work group, I would suggest that it is a solution, perhaps not the solution that we could be working on.


>> OLGA CAVALI:  Thank you, Rinalia, thank you, Cheryl.  I think that it will be both.  I think that some local partners could be relevant in relation with knowing the local community, knowing the local companies, especially the small and medium enterprises.  Big companies have a policy on domain names, they're protecting them, but at least in Latin America, most of the local industry is driven by small and medium enterprises, most of them don't even have one web page, some of them are using Facebook as a web page and holder, which is okay, but I think it's both that the company should do.  It's online with social networking, at the same time have a nice website perhaps with interaction with the community.  So I think that the partnership with local companies that already have the networking for reaching this small and medium enterprises in some communities is relevant, and I would like to also make a comment about the remediation, and this is a comment made by myself as an optimistic person without remedy.  I think that perhaps there could be a way that some companies have applied for close TLD's could have the flexibility of thinking about the second level, which will be the registration policies, because if a name of a region is taken by a brand as a closed brand TLD, there's no way that the community of that place has a say in that TLD.  But if there is a way to think about a solution, a remedy, for bringing those parties together and this is ?? please, take me as a personal comment, not as my country company ?? because it should be a win?win, not a lose?lose, because if a company doesn't have the name and the region doesn't have the name, then it is a lose?lose for everyone.  So the remedy would be nice and thinking about the second level would be relevant to know what the company wants to do with the second level.  Imagine a name of a region with a second level names of countries.  So which is the policy that they will use?  If we know that or if there is a way to remedy how the application of the closed brand has been represented, that could be a way out, but this is Olga thinking, not the country.

>> RINALIA ABDUL RAHIM:  Caveat noted.  Andrei, I would like to know what are the key sustainability factors for you?

>> ANDREI KOLESNIKOV:  I would like to refer to Edmon's words.  Well, I believe that most of the applications will fail, excuse me, because in the Internet, you know, you just take the success stories and different start?ups and if you apply it to a new TLD programme, well, the mogul brands supported of course by the huge money, and we all in the same boat and there is no warranty, there is no guarantee that all projects will rocket.  So I mean, this is just hard work.  You do your work, you do it good, then you succeed.  If not, you fail, that's it, that's the whole sustainability model, in my opinion.

>> RINALIA ABDUL RAHIM:  Sorry, can you also touch on the importance of partnerships and what type of partnerships?  Because I know that it runs across the panel, but I would like it articulated more.

>> ANDREI KOLESNIKOV:  Partnership.  Well, in all cases, at least discussed at this table, it's all about the partnership.  I mean, in the DotKids model, it's a platform where you engage the young people to build their own environment.  It's basically a partnership with kids and also with organisations dealing with the kids.  In our case, it's the same but a little bit reverse, we build the platform, and the specialists, the professionals, build the platform on the content and governments support it and business is involved into sponsoring, so it's all about the partnership.  I mean, what else in your question, what specific was in your question?  I don't quite understand, because this is all about the partnership.

>> RINALIA ABDUL RAHIM:  Right, it is about partnership but partnership is a big word and it could mean many things.  In the case of DotKids, DotAsia is their safety net.  There is support of the organisation.

>> ANDREI KOLESNIKOV:  We are the sponsor, we've created the application running for it, DotKids, but it goes beyond TLD, more than 80% of the work they do is not related to the gTLD application.  For us, it's just, you know, our traditional, you know, registry work and 80% of the work performed by the colleagues is actually related to the activities dealing with the people, organisations, Government, building a partnership, involving the artists, et cetera, et cetera, it's not about the Internet at all.

>> RINALIA ABDUL RAHIM:  So there is a lot, as you said, a lot of hard work, a lot of mobilization, a buildup process in getting ownership and community excited about it.

>> ANDREI KOLESNIKOV:  It is, yes.

>> RINALIA ABDUL RAHIM:  Any other questions from the floor that's really burning?  Because we're coming up to five more minutes.  Okay.  If there are no questions, I would like ?? you have a question?  You have a comment?  On sustainability, okay, just very quickly, go ahead.

>> SCOTT SEITZ:  So the other part of sustainability that I don't think people have realm put a lot of time and effort into thinking through is how sustainable is a business if you're in with 100 other people and you just paid $110 million to own a domain, how many people do you have to sell to, how much will that have to cost and everything else.  So we have a lot of wild?ass movers and shakers in the business community who are taking a look at this, who are getting all hot and bothered like an art auction at Sotheby's, and it will not be pretty.  On the sustainability side, I think the aha moment should be for everybody, the crazies, I shouldn't say that, it's a different animal than what I'm doing.  What we're doing at DotGay, we have one application, we're doing one thing, we haven't spent all our time trying to figure out how to kill everybody else, we're just trying told our job.  But on the community application, where I think there's an issue s that when you did out and are looking for financing or looking for community and talking about the foundations or the support that you're getting through your partnerships, you're talking about partnerships in that situation as somebody who is funding you.  The gay community is largely self?funded.  When you start an application process at $185,000 to individual organisations out there who barely are getting by, who are almost entirely run by volunteers, who do not have the bandwidth to pay any attention to this until much like corporate America it's shoved into their face and they just have another Patagonia situation on their hands, you know, we need to take a look at the community application process because, in fact, that is a different animal, it is going to be more bootstrap, we will plan for that kind of slow ten?year success, we will not plan for the instantaneous amount of money because it's not going to be there.  There's not necessarily going to be a foundation there or a partnership there to back us up.  So I think the community foundation or the community process in general has been largely disadvantaged keeping a lot of organisations and community people out, and it has to really be considered a little differently than the general business process and standard process that's out there.  Thank you. 

>> RINALIA ABDUL RAHIM:  Thank you, Scott.  So in our final wrap?up, since Avri Doria is in the room. 

>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  I channeled her.


>> RINALIA ABDUL RAHIM:  And she's the Chair of the gTLD working group, I would like each one of the panellists, if you have a message for Avri in terms of what the remedial action needs to address better compared to the previous rounds, so that we can correct the previous mistakes, starting from Edmon.

>> EDMON CHUNG:  Sure, thank you, Rinalia.  Well, I guess I'm just thing out loud here, but three things really, one of which is the financial support programme needs to be tweaked, as I mentioned, a lot of the times initiatives, they're new initiatives and to have them demonstrate financial stability is it a problem in itself and it's shown by the lack of participation in that process.  The other one is the community evaluation process is not really in allowing initiatives to be formed around communities.  The communities themselves should well be established long before the process, the new gTLD, but bringing them together requires time and I guess the DotAsia Spencer is that ?? is that it would happen after the new gTLD is in place and becomes a flag and a beacon for the community to rally around, and the third point was, oh, Steve brought in up, and I guess the concept of allowing it to fail, you know, allowing initiatives to fail gracefully and to fail completely, you know, sort of what I call a sunset process kind of thing and put that in place so that our risk tolerance is higher in the process.

>> RINALIA ABDUL RAHIM:  Thank you.  Yannis, any thoughts on this?

>> YANNIS LI:  Just a quick one, thinking about this from a community perspective, which I think most of the organisations people from the community, general public, they don't have knowledge about new gTLD and I think we need a more summary or easier version, which those who are not familiar with our industry can understand because there may not always be a service provider or there may not always be industry experts that can help them to understand this.  Thank you.

>> RINALIA ABDUL RAHIM:  Thank you.  Fouad?

>> FOUAD BAJWA:  One thought that was going on continuously in my mind is it took nearly a decade to come down to approving the launch of the new gTLD programme but we did not give time to plan out our concerns to the extent that we're able to sensitize or be sensitive to community needs.  Communities are diverse.  Communities' needs are diverse.  Each group's, their demographics, their security levels, everything will vary.  The kind of environments these communities live in and operate in and what has already been ?? what they've already been pressurized within their regions, in their countries, on their groups and communities, these are challenges.  ICANN will have to learn to be sensitive, ICANN will have to learn to be open much more than the free market economy.  It will have to realize that there's sort of a social economy to the whole new gTLD programme as well, and when we're talking about community, communities have to be listened to.  We cannot just keep them disconnected from ICANN and expect that we've designed the perfect programme that will help them.  We have to go back, we have to revisit, number one thing.  Number two thing, same rules, same opportunity should be there for the community applicants as well.  This should also be for graceful retirement, they should also be allowed for possibly co?op, there should be sort of a cooperative approach to helping them succeed.  It goes to the extent that there should be efforts where ICANN and the already existing business community would also help to make these communities successful.  Thank you.

>> RINALIA ABDUL RAHIM:  Thank you.  Cheryl?

>> CHERYL LANGDON-ORR:  Thanks, Rinalia.  I think the thing that I'm taking away from today's session and would like to share, we've put you in the hot seat, there you go, I've heard a lot about partnerships, in the panel here there are partnerships that have been established in the preemptive, preapplication phase.  I think we also need to think about the power of partnerships during and post delegation because I think there needs to be a shifting land escape, we did not know what we did not know when he wrote the book so we need to be a bit more open.


>> ANDREI KOLESNIKOV:  Everything has been said, I wish success to all the participants on this table, that's the main thing.


>> SCOTT SEITZ:  My two cents on the whole thing is the point I just brought up before, which is I think, and Avri and I are on board with a lot of these things, buffet the need to elevate community in the eyes of the ICANN organisation as one of the true reasons why this whole process was opened up in the first place and to make it easier or make it a different maybe model for a community application versus a business application because there are these barriers to up and coming countries or organisations and other communities are just still too big for participation globally.

>> RINALIA ABDUL RAHIM:  Thank you.  Finally, Olga.

>> OLGA CAVALI:  Thank you, I would like to stress this idea of remediation and the hope for flexibility and still those have been presented in a certain way, there could be a way that the community could have a say about related with communities.  I think the good thing now is several communities know much more about what we have been doing for more than ten years about this issue, that is good.  What is not good is that we're facing kind of a moment, a decision moment, and I think that Fouad said something really relevant, I can sure realize that this is a turning point for the internationalization.  As I said many times, if a brand keeps a name of a region, that's for the brand, it's fantastic, the region will go on, nice places will go on, tourism, people that live there have their lives, nothing will change.  What will happen with ICANN?  Thank you.

>> RINALIA ABDUL RAHIM:  Thank you.  Now we come to the end of our workshop.  I would like to thank everyone for staying, I know we've exceeded the time.  We started the workshop with a question is there value for community in terms of new gTLDs, and the applicants at the table basically demonstrate that they do see value, but perhaps others need more help in understanding what the value is and perhaps the sharing across various communities could be enhanced and perhaps ICANN and IGF could help that process further.  There are also clearly some challenges, Andrei summed it up as it's a lot of work and it will continue to be hard work, and Edmon touched on the failures, there will be failures as well and perhaps we need to help them be graceful failures, instead of drastic.  There's a lot of work to be done in terms of successes and failures of gTLDs, and I think IGF will do further rounds, and you're instrumental in that process.  Thank you, everyone, and enjoy lunch.

>> Thank you, Rinalia.


(12:39 PM)



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