Young People and their Safeguards in an Increasingly Connected World ECPAT International

30 September 2011 - A Workshop on Security in Nairobi, Kenya

Also available in:
Full Session Transcript

September 30, 2011 - 11:00AM


The following is the output of the real-time captioning taken during the Sixth Meeting of the IGF, in Nairobi, Kenya. Although it is largely accurate, in some cases it may be incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. It is posted as an aid to understanding the proceedings at the session, but should not be treated as an authoritative record.


     >> ANJAN BOSE: Good morning everyone.  We are not quite starting yet.  Maybe a couple of minutes before we put the presentations on.  But thanks for coming in early.  I think we will take another couple of minutes to get the presentations on the computer, which is hooked up to the projector.  Thanks for waiting. 

     Good morning again.  I think while they are setting up the computer for the preparations we can start.  A very welcome and a very good morning to all of you who it's very surprising that we have a full room at 11:00, which is -- which is really very satisfying to all of us, and particularly for the young people who we have on our panel who must be really pleased to see all of you coming here to hear their voice.  So a big welcome to our distinguished panelists, all the young people who are here.

     >> (off mic)

     >> ANJAN BOSE: Yes, you are one of them.  (laughter) Let me introduce today's session before, you know, we start.  There's one important distinction that I would like to make here.  We have been participating in various different workshops on child on-line protection, and there are issues that are kind of overlapping and doesn't get covered or, you know, people expect something, which is probably not easy to address within the time -- you know, the time that we have. 

     Just to reiterate that this is a panel of young people.  This is their voice, and I don't think there are many workshops around that actually allows them to speak spontaneously, and we would encourage them to open up their mind, to say whatever they have to say, their voice, and I just want to make sure that your voice goes all the way through, not only in the confines of this room, but as representation of young people around the world.  We have a geographic -- good geographic Intersessional spread here, and -- geographical spread here and I would like to introduce Mara Sanchez, who has come all the way from Costa Rica, and I would like John Hee to introduce her, because under their patronage it's possible for her to travel.

     >> I'm JeoungHee Kim.  I'm glad to be here.  (off mic) -- Child Protection and Child Protection Initiative in 2008.  Since then IT has provided an international framework on child Internet protection.  Last year we had a new COP patron who is a patron of Costa Rica, and working together with Petra and closely working with Costa Rica, and you see (off mic) is from?  Costa Rica.  Last month we had a competition in Costa Rica and tomorrow is the competition winner, so please welcome Tamara and share her experience with us.  Thank you.


     >> ANJAN BOSE: Yes, and you can introduce her and her work.

     >> Good morning.  My name is Mahi (off mic).  I'm based in Costa Rica, as John just said.  I work for public/private called Omar foundation.  We basically work in the field of technology and education and we were the organization that organized the video competition and actually selected the winner, who is Tamara.  And I just wanted, since it's a youth panel and I'm not that young, I just get like two-minute speech. 

     So I just wanted to highlight two key aspects before Tamara gets to speak, and first of all, the video you're going to see is in Spanish.  She's the one who produced it, and all the people who appear in the video are actually the teachers of her school.  So you get to -- you will get to see a lot of adults, but they're all teachers, including the director of the school.

     And second of all, I wanted to highlight the reason why we selected her basically is because we think that this video is a product that shows that she has leadership skills.  She actually was able to convince the whole school community to get organized, to get them together, she actually produced the video.  She filmed it and she showed that she also has technical skills, because she edited the video.  She did a very good job.  She's definitely a team player.  So to us it shows that she's, in one word, a leader, and she has like -- what we call 21st century skills, which are key skills, in our opinion.

     So what we're going to do now, she's going to explain a few things about -- before we play the video, and I'll be translating because she's been learning English for a year, and so she feels more comfortable if she can speak in Spanish.

     >> [speaking in Spanish]

     >> Good morning.  I got interested in on-line safety issues because I think it is important for my peers in my school to become aware of on-line safety issues.

     >> [speaking in Spanish]

     >> I can see that my friends at school, we all spend a lot of time being on-line, and it's important to us that we get a different perspective and we become aware of risks on-line.

     >> [speaking in Spanish]

     >> It was quite a difficult process to produce the video, but I got permission from the director, so it took us, like, one day to film the whole thing, and I could miss classes thanks to the permission of the director, which is a big thing to her.  She keeps repeating it.

     >> [speaking in Spanish]

     >> She -- she's saying that she's very thankful to specifically three teachers that guide her through the whole process and were very supportive and helped her resolving problems she faced, and she was able to do her best.

     >> [speaking in Spanish]

     >> She also had a lot of support from her parents.  She actually asked for permission to her mother, who is over there (off mic) right now, and also her friends at school were very supportive and tried to do their best, although they do not appear in the video, they keep constantly trying to help her.  They were helping her a lot.

     >> [speaking in Spanish]

     >> Okay.  She wishes to thank the ITU for the invitation and it has been a very good experience for her and it's the first time she's able to be in such an event and she's been learning a lot and knowing very interesting people and she's very grateful for the opportunity she has had.  Thank you.

     >> ANJAN BOSE: Thank you very much.  If we might play the video now.  Yes.  So that -- we will turn the microphone off.

     (playing video)

     >> This presentation.  51% of children who responded do not know about the dangers they can face on-line.  Doesn't mean that they don't know about dangers on-line or doesn't mean that they don't believe they will face it.  Or doesn't mean that if they even face it they will never talk about it.  Because sexual exploitation hurts children very much.  And as you can see they use Internet for meeting new people (off mic) are surprised to see that friends are other than what they expected.  They realise they are not young pretty boys.  In real life they are grown up to be adult, you know. 

     And in 65% of these children do not inform their parents about this, so they stay alone with this pain, with this hurt, and it is very important, so they can share with it.  And actually children are looking for on-line, of course, it is social networks.  That's what I want to discuss today, and, you know, another issue I want to point out is that children consider no (off mic) or try to look sexually attractive.  I know that not only from survey.  I know that personally from children I work with, and I think that this is a great problem, and not only in Ukraine, you know?

     Do they post these photos because they want to find sexual photos?  I don't think so.  I think they post these because they want to be attractive, they want to be popular, they want to attract attention for them, and it is the responsibility of adults to find a new method to work with them, to find a method to involve them in other activities.

     But the maturation -- when I talk to children, they say it is exciting, it is interesting, so what actually do we do?  We try to find initiatives what influence children to have that experience, how to pay attention to things that could be interesting for them, except negative comments.  And actually one of these is every year celebrating international safe Internet day. 

     You probably all know about it.  What actually we do, we try to organize with children these events, and we try to empower them to do something ourselves, and they -- you know, they became like a businessman because they have to find a partnership with Government representatives, with private sector and media.  And I want to share with you the methods.  One of these is accepting children through social networks.  It is training on using ICT for child rights protection, so actually there are a lot of children who are not used to working on school's programme, you know?  So you can make lessons with them.  And what we decided to do, we involved them for making movies.  And another point is children going to make it to (off mic) manual that will consist of not only information about CCIC but also includes plans of training.  So other children can use this tool to work with their peers.

     Also, we try to engage children to be trainees in Ukraine.  We have youth section.  Another issue is Internet hotline and child pornography connections that we have in Ukraine.  I want to produce it to you, but the problem is this hotline actually organized by two peoples, and it is just an initiative, and no financial support makes --

     (no audio)

     >> JONATHAN SSEMBAJWE: Good morning to all.  My name is Jonathan Ssembajwe, the Uganda representative, and I'm from Uganda, East Africa.  First of all let me convey my thanks to ITU for enabling us to attend the (off mic).  They supported us in each and everything.

     Between June and September 2011 this year (off mic) carried out a site survey on the use of the Internet and communication technologies in five African countries including Uganda, Kenya, Togo, Gambia and Cameroun.  This survey was conducted and laid by young people in an effort of promoting children and youth participation.  As such, the targeted children 11 to 18 years and young people between 19 to 24 years, schoolteachers and Internet cafe operators.  Those are some of the pictures which were taken while conducting this survey.

     Some of the highlights and characteristics which I would like to share with you from this research, social networks are really part of life of African children, especially girls on Facebook.  Children and young people in Africa are equally interested in hearing and creating content like in other parts of the world they share pictures, videos and (off mic).  Mobile phones are increasingly being used in Uganda and other African countries as a cheap sort of Internet access.  For example, in Uganda we have a mobile phone company which gives free -- gives free or very cheap Facebook access to people who have smartphones if they buy their SIM cards.

     Children preferred to have a child protection system on-line in order to enjoy the benefits of Internet and communication technologies without any risk.  It was also evidenced that (off mic) risks are not also in children but also in adults.  As I was talking to a certain teacher, he told me that, during the research, I hate visiting Internet cafes.  In many cases when I open up a Web page, I just line (off mic) the site and I feel embarrassed, most especially when there is someone seeing me or witnessing me.  So even adults are facing some risks in Internet and communication technologies.

     Some of the findings, schools have started receiving funds for ICT development, but with no guidelines on ICT use.  A large number of teachers and parents do not know what their children do while on-line.  There is frequent visiting of (off mic) sites by (off mic) in order to share the experience.  Internet cafe operators do not have policies of protecting children on-line and many of them don't know the risks which young people can face when using the Internet.

     Some of the challenges we (off mic) during the research.  During the research some schools that have started -- not started using ICT were not supportive during the research.  They think seeing for us, we don't have ICTs, we don't use Internet, so there's no need of this project in our school.  Forgetting that, when these young people go back home, they go to cafes and even at times escape from schools and visit the Internet cafes.

     Some cafe operators thought of losing customers when we told them about the making Information and Communication Technology safe for young people, why they thought of losing customers and many of them were not supportive.  Some such as from other fields who carried out research before (off mic) international, were not charter friendly and this brought a programme whereby some schools were known (off mic) ask us different questions before allowing us to carry out our research, but our research was very successful and we are so (off mic) friendly.

     At this juncture let me call upon Mr. and Anjan Bose to give us the statistical data from this research.  Thank you so much.

     >> ANJAN BOSE: Thank you very much, Jonathan.  I think we learned something very new from --


     >> ANJAN BOSE: To conclude this part of the presentation, I know we are kind of pressed for time, and to present the full statistics will take, you know, many hours.  What I will probably do is to give a very quick snapshot, so Jonathan, if you can quickly go through the slides and if I want you to stop on one or two, just highlight that.  This just shows that out of the 1500-plus target students we had, we are able to -- on the charts you have, it's representative of 652 children, and data from Cameroun is unfortunately not included because we received it quite late.

     Again, no surprise here -- we have two graphs here, interestingly.  The green one is including the data from Kenya, and the blue one without Kenya.  The reason why we wanted to include this data is to show that it significantly impacts the results for all the data that we receive.  Kenya tends to alter or skew the data in one direction.  So with Kenya it goes up.  This is again the percentage of people using cyber cafes.  Move on, please.  Quick.

     Yes, again -- go back to the previous one.  Advance phones and smartphones are increasingly getting popular.  Again -- previous slide, please.  Internet use to the mobile phones if we include Kenya is almost 40-plus, whereas without ten yeah it's 20 -- Kenya it's 20 something.  These are some of the studies.  One interesting observation here is, you know, more percentage of 17 to 18-year-old children has said yes to viewing pornography on-line, and of course male represents a larger number here.

     Again, it's a bit of contradiction because in Kenya we were expecting to see this graph higher, but we realise that even with higher access to Internet, the people percentage -- percentage for Kenya is low.

     Well, again, some of the statistics on what did -- what do they do while they're on-line.  Can you hold on for -- the previous one?  Yeah.

     Again, who would children approach?  No surprises here.  They will always revert to their friends and peers, 80%.  Okay.  So I think you got -- maybe you show the one for the cyber cafes.  Maybe go back.  Maybe I didn't include the cyber cafes there.  It showed a significant variation of the understanding of the risk across the countries, and this data will be presented -- will be compiled very soon and will be put up on our Web site, so if anybody is interested, please visit our Web site a month from now or maybe a month and a half.  We expect to have the finalized report by then.

     And so with that I'll move on to our next young person.  So if -- I would kindly request Priscillia to introduce Arsene's work.  Arsene is from Congo, and Priscillia had made his travel with the support of ITU.  She has worked with him.  So I would allow Priscillia to present his work.

     >> PRISCILLIA HOVEYDA: Thank you.  My name is Priscillia Hoveyda.  I'm the project coordinator of the (off mic) project at UNICEF New York, and I'm going to introduce you to (off mic) who will have the opportunity to say a few words for himself, but he's 21 and he's from eastern Congo.

     >> ARSENE TUNGALI: Thank you, Priscillia.  Hello, everybody.  As Priscillia said before I'm Arsene Tungali.  I'm 21 years old.  Yeah, I'm going to share with you my own experience about what -- what is the ICTs for a young -- for youth living in the post-conflict zone.

     As I said, I'm -- I'm involved with UNICEF since a time, and I'm working with now (off mic).  So I'm a student from Africa.  My country is called Democratic Republic of Congo, which is located at the -- in the centre of Africa, surrounded by about nine other countries such as Uganda, Rwanda, and Angola.  And so on.  I'm coming from a city called Goma.  Goma is the capital city of North Kivu Province, which is located at the east of my country.  North Kivu is the most (off mic) of my country.  This picture is showing just how Goma looks like.

     So now I'm going to share with you some facts about the Congo, about my country.  My country, Congo, is the second largest country in Africa.  It is about 71 million people, which means it's the fourth most populous nation in Africa.  I would like to talk about -- in a few minutes about these facts, so because -- because someone or few may already know them, but for others it will help you to understand and to get the context in which I live and what I'm going to say just a little bit.

     So we faced two main worlds and this really affects the youth in my city, especially in the eastern parts of my country.  So the first (off mic) place from 96 to 97, which was from to change of president to another one, for those who heard my country story, they usually didn't know about it.  So the second one started from '98 to 2003, and from this war a lot of -- a huge number of people will die.  It's a bit more than 5 million people die on this war.  So due to this -- to these two wars, my country faced destabilization, so we've had a lot of time -- yeah, things were not going well.

     To finish this aspect, I would like to say that my country is the -- has the population which lives with less than $1.25 a day as an income.  That means people are living under the poverty line.

     So now I'm going to -- what does this mean, all this I have said, in ICT environment?  So as you can see on the picture there, this is a generator.  I'm going to talk about the challenge of electricity which we are facing in our region.  I said before I'm coming from Goma.  Goma, we do not have permanent electricity.  That's a very big problem, so that's -- that do not allow youth to have access to Internet.  That's what I'm talking now.  So we have access to electricity, for instance, in my neighborhood, we have access to electricity only from 11:00 p.m. to 6:00 a.m., where everyone is supposed to go to bed.  So you can imagine -- you can see -- you can see it's a bit difficult to have access to Internet because we always -- we should use computers and computers require us to have -- to have power, electricity power.

     So what are we doing as youth?  Because this is a challenge, but as a youth, but I'm able to stay connected with the world and to get involved in ICTs.

     As you can see on the picture there, these are youth in my region using mobile phone.  This is one of the solutions that we have -- we have in my -- in my city, and this helps people to get access to Internet.  Using through a mobile phone, and this allows me to stay connected on Facebook and others.

     So if you do not use phone, for those who have -- who have a bit money for (off mic) you can even go to (off mic) and you will have to pay, every day you pay money, and this for youth, it's not very -- it's not easy.  So this is a challenge.  So we have your mobile phone and then we use cyber cafe.

     So that's the application I'm using on my mobile phone.  I use -- I can use YouTube.  I can use Google for my research.  I can even blog.  I'm blogging for some -- some social news about my country, about my city, but we are not allowed to talk much about politics, because many journalists in my country have been imprisoned because they talk about the president, they talk about bad things about the president, while it is sometimes true.  I'm using Twitter, I'm using Facebook, I'm using MSN, skype and others.

     So if I would say something about their risks, the risks that youth are facing in my region.  To be honest I would like to say -- before I get involved with UNICEF and work with Priscillia, I didn't know anything about the risks.  That's really youth are facing -- or that I was supposed to face while using ICT, was using Internet.

     So I already received emails coming from countries, U.S.A., Canada, people trying to say that they are sending me money, but before I receive the money they usually ask me to send some money so that they may receive that money.  (laughter) So I usually respond to those men, but since I get involved with UNICEF, I truly understand that this was robbers, and actually I can't -- I can't even have a response to those emails.  This is one of the emails I got, and I put it there.

     So I would like to talk about the viruses as the other problem that most of the youth face in my country.  Most of them do not know anything about antivirus programmes.  I'm lucky as I get the computer from an organization where I was working, but most of the youth in my country do not -- they don't have computers.  I would like -- I can say even my university there is no computer.  So that's a very huge problem to access to Internet.  So most of my friends do not know anything about viruses.  So when they are using computers, they face always those problems of viruses.  Then in Facebook in my city, they even do not up-to-date the anti-viruses programme, which is their problem.  So that is another problem.

     I would like to point out other things about when youth -- youth are using Internet, they usually meet with strange people.  As my brother -- my colleague there told about, you will be using your Facebook, for instance, you are adding people on their profile, for instance, on Facebook they will say, okay, I'm a young people.  I'm a student at which university, but we are not sure that's really what he's talking -- his profile is really what he's -- that is another problem that youth face on Internet.  So they usually meet strange people, richer people, and that's really another problem.

     So as a conclusion I would like to say, this is a problem in my country, which is the penetration of network is very low.  The penetration in my city is very low for Internet.  So while we are using mobile phone, it helps us to stay connected with the world, but for those who have access to Internet in cyber cafes, they have to pay every day, every day, to stay connected in the world. 

     So I would like to advise or to have a recommendation.  So that people, you are here, may think about how you can help such a region to have access to ICTs, by providing computers in some universities and access to Internet and by teaching some people.  I would like to ask you to help youth in my region to get involved in the ICTs because this is -- this helps me to stay connected and to have -- to have -- to have -- even to be here, because if I was not a user of ICTs I couldn't even have been here.  So that's -- that's what I'm talking about.

     So in short, thank you for your attention.


     >> ANJAN BOSE: Thank you very much, Arsene.  Very well done.  Well, because, you know, one thing I just can't help commenting here, when do you charge your mobile phones?  Because it shows us that, you know, if you are not having power at home, it's only from 11:00 p.m. to 6:00 a.m., and that probably drives more young people to use mobile phone, and, you know, it has different implications.  You know, if more people are using mobile phones and accessing Internet and all the applications that you mentioned, what's the -- you know, the appeal.  We'll come back to the audience later on but it opens up big questions.  Thank you very much for that.

     And that concludes our young people's voice.  We move on to another young person, and I wouldn't really -- he looks very young.  (laughter) He is -- I was told he is 29, so he's definitely younger than most of us.  He is going to present -- sorry, I apologize for not telling your name.  I'm happy to introduce Peter Adeleye, from Nigeria, and he's the representative of the programmes -- he's an IT (off mic) by profession and he's the country director for Youth Crime Watch of Nigeria.  And I'm sure we will have a different perspective from your presentation, so the floor is all yours.

     >> OLUGBENGA ADELEYE: Thank you for giving me this opportunity.  I want to appreciate ITU and ECPAT International.  Like he said, I'm from nitrogen, and every time that -- I'm from Nigeria, and every time that Nigeria is mentioned, something summon must, cybercrime.  I will let you know certain facts about Nigeria. 

     First of all, foremost, yes, we have social, political and economic problem, and these led some of our children, our young people to be involved in cybercrime, in on-line abuse and sort of threats.  So we look at this -- we cannot continue like this as a nation, and as young people, as children. 

     Something has to be done, and we have to raise our voice to the Parliament, to Government, but we find out that they don't even -- or that's not what we are facing.  So -- and we believe that, oh, young people, we are the greatest hope of the future, so we can do something.  So an initiative called Youth Crime of Nigeria was established in 2002, and then I was around 20 years old and I left my IT job into the work.  So many people don't believe something can be done but I believe we can do something.  So Youth Crime works for youth and by youth.

     We have a responsibility, and we want to understand that I'm not here to give us statistics, just to let us know what we have done as related to on-line threats in Nigeria.

     So first and foremost, in Nigeria, we have situational centres whereby we have young people, we have children all around.  We train them on ICT and Internet.  In fact, Nigerian youth and children, they don't need to be trained on ICT.  They understand it perfectly, and in this we find out that our children, our youth, they are (off mic) ammunitions, so by the years -- over the past ten years they've been (off mic) ammunition, so this call for more problem on-line, because these are the youth that are going to law enforcement agencies, these are the youth that we go on-line and do one thing or another.  So we have a situation sent us, whereby we train them, they pay them work to do.  Well, recently there's a call from Europe that -- that some on-line transaction, and we use young people. 

     Let me first mention, they're not able to listen to us but they listen to young people in Nigeria.  There's so much interesting in young people in Nigeria, so they should go to Nigeria and post (off mic) and stop (off mic) transaction.  In this slide we see, these are the two myths I received recently from Europe.  We stop the transaction by young people and we return it back to the Huna. 

     So young people (off mic) do you want things in Nigeria?  We have publications.  We have sensitized (off mic) young people, law enforcement agencies.  The reason we are changing the (off mic), magazines.  So we train them, we give them scholarship on ICT, and we -- recently we met in Ghana.  Youth Crime works in 22 countries in Africa, and I'm happy to be the coordinator of Africa by December 2011. 

     So it is to increase confidence, to strengthen youth and police relationship as related to social crime, to Internet abuse.  So these are many more we have done.  We have cybersecurity close in school now, and we have ICT peer-friendly groups.  These are what we have done in Nigeria. 

     Because of my time I don't have much time to keep on going, but we -- we realise recently that due to lack of development in rural communities in Nigeria, those children, they have accessed the mobile phone, but they move to the urban centre from rural, so putting more pressures on the urban centre, so since they cannot find what they're looking for in the city, they tend to go to cyber cafes by 12:00 a.m. to 6:00 a.m.  It happens in all African countries.  So from 12:00 a.m., to 4:00 a.m., the GMS give us to young people to browse the Internet free of charge and to (off mic). 

     So let's -- in the night, you see young people, and they have problem.  Now, I have a photo on my system whereby we have all (off mic) from the western world coming down to Nigeria to my young guys.  So these are -- this has become a problem.  But I believe that since Youth Crime is there we were doing so wonderfully in Nigeria, working with Government, working with law enforcement agents.  In fact, you cannot recognize us.  We have the (off mic) we move around the communities, what is going on.  We encourage young people to come together, and we have this slogan, (off mic) a youth today, and once we pass on information we give constantly. 

     Since over nine years now I've been on this job and every day I am sure I leave my house, we go to school, we talk to teachers and students.  (off mic) Internet connected.  We assure that the computers are safe.  We are working with south African companies now to have software to be installed on all the computers.  This is my situation and I believe that Nigeria is safe now.  Thank you.


     >> ANJAN BOSE: Thank you very much, Peter, for enlightening us on a different types of -- different types of engagement that you are involved in.  I'm looking at my watch, and time just flew.  45 minutes, almost 50 minutes has gone without us being bored, and thank you to all of you for that.

     Without further ado, I open up this discussion in a different format now.  You know, I have -- we are very glad to have the representative of (off mic), Mr. Richard Allan, who is the director of policy for the EMEA region.  And it's, you know, looking at the dynamics, we are expecting to have -- he is not having a formal presentation like others, but what we agreed to do is to present him with a few questions around which we can have a debate, and we can have the view of Facebook, you know, in relation to all the things we are talking about.

     I will just go through some of the questions quickly.  The first one is how does the policies for Facebook change with regions?  How does the user settings and parameters get dictated by national laws of data protection and privacy?  What has been the response of Facebook with its global acceptance among children and young people?  Do you observe any pattern of use relative to the regional variances? 

     And the other question that I really want to add here is how invested is Facebook in protecting the rights of children, in view of mass popularity and acceptance of the social networks.  We have seen from our previous presentations it's a global thing now, and protecting their freedom of expression and the right to protection and striking a balance there, we are looking forward to having your response there.  And finally, you know, hearing some of your projects and initiatives that involves children and how much input children has to those.  So if we can construct the debate around that that would be great.  Thank you.

     >> RICHARD ALLAN: Thanks very much for setting me up that way, Anjan, as the oldest person yet on the panel, but I'm glad that Larry is following me.  (laughter) This panel is ordered by age, have you noticed?  Sometimes it's alphabetical.  This one is buy age.  I think that's not too cheeky, Larry.  Just slightly, sorry.

     >> (off mic)

     >> Okay.  And I'll catch up.  (laughter) And also for -- you're right, it's been a fascinating presentation so far so it's my turn to make it boring right now.  So I'll try not to do that, and I'll try to as quickly as I can go through those key issues that you've raised, and really offer you some insight into how we think as a service provider on this issue, the kind of decisions that we make and the vision and the values that we have.

     So just to start, I was fascinated by Tamara's video at the beginning, she set out for us really clearly when you go on to the Internet there's a whole range of services available and you are choosing between those.  And so when you're building a service like Facebook, what we're thinking is that we would like it to be one of the safest places on the Internet, so that's very much part of the vision that we have.  We want to build a fairly open platform that people can share information with each other on, they can make friends and connections, but we also want that platform to be safe and a safe choice for people when they're thinking which service do I use. 

     So it's a competitive space, and I think safety is one of the factors that you want to compete on if you're building a service, not just because it's morally the right thing to do but also because that's what allows to you build a community that's significant where people want to stay on your service.

     In terms of, again, how we -- how this impacts regionally, we have a fairly consistent pattern of usage.  We're now up to 800 million people across the globe.  Actually younger people are a minority.  We would think of people as three categories.  There's under 13s, which today are not allowed on Facebook at all, and I know there's kids that get on.  But if you're under 13 you shouldn't get on.  There's a debate about whether services like ours should make the service safe for under 13s or just keep them off. 

     There's a second category, 13 to 17-year-olds, and they are less than 20% of our user base.  In most countries they're 15 or 16% of our user base will be in the 17 to 18 year age-group and they have special restrictions on their account.  So for example, if you are over 18 you can share stuff with the whole world on Facebook.  If you're under 18 we set the maximum at friends of friends.  So there are some restrictions around that.  There's restrictions around the way you can (off mic) search.  Peter was right in terms of the analysis that women -- we're slightly more family than male, which I think is interesting in terms of the evolution of the Web, that we're getting services now -- the vision of the Internet as a home for male geeks is like history now and services are very popular across the social spread.

     Interestingly as we become more mature in a country we tend to get more older people.  So the really big number is kind of 18 to 34 but those 35 pluses start joining the service as the system becomes more mature.  I describe it as the weddings and babies effect, people have babies or they get married, they're in their late 20s or 30s and say to their 60-year-old parents, if you want to see the photos you have to go on Facebook.  So it's kind of like an inter-generational recruitment process.

     In terms of then how we try and keep the service safe and how we articulate that, there are several elements I'll refer to quickly.  Policy, reporting and investigation, and I think that covers some of the other questions you raised.

     In terms of policy, I think the really critical one is what we call the real identity policy, and both us and Valya referred to the issue on meeting with strangers.  This is contentious, them saying we demand the right to anonymity, the right to be anonymous on the Internet.  We say there are plenty of spaces where you can do that but just not on Facebook.  We want to be really clear about that.  Because it's so fundamental to your experience that when you deal with someone you don't have an absolute guarantee they are who they say they are but you have a reasonable expectation, and for most people here if they do use Facebook, I'm sure they find that most of the people they're interacting with are actually real friends and they can verify them by seeing who their friends are, they have some way of putting them in context.  So real identity we absolutely stick to and is a key part of our system.

     The other value that we have is no nudity and pornography policy, absolutely strict.  I talked to someone earlier and they said their account had been closed because they had posted nude photos.  So the system is clearly working.  It is Wacamo, people post that material and you have to keep closing their accounts, but our policy is clear, no nudity, no pornography on Facebook, and if you post it we will close your account.  And I say, that's again a rule we have.  Other people say I would like to post that material.  Again, post it somewhere else, not on our service, and people have a clear expectation of what's going to happen there.

     And there are a number of other policies we have in place to try and protect people.

     The secondary is reporting.  And again, we have -- I was really interested in the chart that Anjan put up around where people would go.  And again the problem is to try to get the report to the right person that would help.  Sometimes if you want to report something that's just a unflattering photo of you.  You don't want to take that to the police.  You're wasting time and it won't get fixed.  You want to report it to the person who posted the photo and say, I don't like it and maybe they'll learn not to post any more photos of you. 

     We're trying to create systems for that kind of baseline thing you can send it to the person who posted it.  You might have something more serious where you think it's bullying, and we've created a tool where you can report that to a third party, which could be your parent, who's now on Facebook because they wanted to see the baby photos, or it could be a teacher, it could be a third party. 

     So that social reporting for more serious incidents.  It could be something you need to report to us, like a scam, where you need us to take action and shut those people down, and it could be something you need to report to law enforcement because it's at that very serious end of the spectrum. 

     Our design is to get the right report to the right person who can help that individual.  It's a really complex technical challenge, it's continually evolving but that's what we're trying to do when we build that system.  And it also needs critically partnerships because again, you know, if somebody has posted some illegal material, we can remove the illegal material, we can close the account, but that person may need that door kicking in frankly and them being carted off to face the courts, and that's not something that Facebook has or should ever have the power to do. 

     So those partnerships with agencies around the world, again, very complex to set up, and we've been (off mic) them over time but we need those so we can escalate things at the most serious end of the spectrum.

     So turning to that piece, and I was interested in the issue around scams, Arsene referred to in his presentation, where there is something which is a serious criminal offense taking place as opposed to harassment or something that is between individuals, we do now have what we call an e-crime investigations team, so those people are -- you know, when we are alerted to something that is a serious criminal offense, we will seek to work out, if there is a network of people doing that, and we'll try and work out whether we can escalate that to a law enforcement agency, and that investigation's work has been growing all the time.

     I was fascinated, Peter, you said that -- when you talked about the scams from Nigeria, I was talking to my colleagues and saying, when we're looking for good Facebook development communities in Africa and Nigeria, it comes out way at the top of the list.  Those skills people have learned, even if they're not for the right purpose, for legitimate work for companies like ours.  I'm pleased to see the way you're encouraging that direction.

     So those are the key elements, having good policies in place, having reporting systems in place and having an investigations capability.  The last piece we talk about a lot and I've left it last, is around education.  The reason I left it last is sometimes Internet companies say it's all about education, like we have no responsibilities, just about education.  Education is important and there are some things we've done.  We've built a safety centre, which again we're continually improving and we're doing that in connection with some partners. 

     You talked about, you know, getting consultation in there.  We have a safety advisory board, which has a number of global NGOs on it and experts we bring in.  There's constant traffic to headquarters helping us provide the education material we need, recognizing that the good education material that's been provided is by ECPAT members, by other NGOs that are out there.  You don't want companies like Facebook reinventing the wheel.  We should be working how we can connect people that use our services.  There's a big education service around there, revolving door, experts who come through and advise us. 

     Looking forward, I think the big challenge for us now is continual improvement.  When you have such a large user community you need to continually improve.  And the second piece I think is really this growth of partnerships that, you know, we have -- you look at a country like the U.S. and naturally you have really well established partnerships with organizations reporting, for example, someone is suicidal or for child abuse images or things like that, we need to replicate those partnerships 160 times.  That keeps us busy and I think will for the next year.  Thank you for the opportunity to share some of that with you today.


     >> ANJAN BOSE: Thank you very much, Richard.  I know we had plenty of other things to discuss.  Maybe later on you may be facing some questions from young people or others.  You know, one thing I would like to highlight here before I move to Larry is you mentioned that no new -- no nudity and no pornography clause, and there might be -- we had heard a few instances of child abuse images being put out.  Of course they were taken down, but the up time and the downtime is something that needs to be considered, you know, just to flag that issue.

     >> RICHARD ALLAN: I just have a quick response on that.  We just implemented recently a technology called photo DNA developed by Microsoft, which tries to match uploaded photos against images that are in the known database held by (off mic).  And if those images are matched, the photo doesn't get uploaded and the person's details are sent to the police, and we're very comfortable with that arrangement.  We think it's the right thing to do.

     >> ANJAN BOSE: Thank you very much.  And our final presentation for the day is Larry Majid, and we are very pleased to welcome you, Larry, to this workshop, and as Richard said it's a mixed age, but I'm sure your presentation will bring a different dimension.  I've already seen a bit of yours and I was impressed, so I would like the other people who are sitting around the table to kind of break the -- you know, to move it in a different direction.  I welcome you here.  Larry is from ConnectSafely.  He has many affiliations but I would like to like to introduce him as the director of

     >> LARRY MAGID: It's an NGO based in California, in Silicon Valley.  I'm very please to do choose my co-director, Anne Collier.  Also Patty Revere is here too.  Anne and I serve on the advisory board at Facebook.  We also serve on a similar board at Google.  We work with Yahoo, we work with many companies in this space some of which are based in our own towns of Silicon Valley, and have advised many of these companies, and I am pleased to report that Facebook occasionally and very often does take our advice, and the advice of our NGOs.  And we're very pleased to see that.

     >> You're looking very young, Larry.

     >> LARRY MAGID: See, I knew it.  (laughter) So moving right along, Anne and Patty and I arrived over the weekend and we decided to go to Nairobi National Park, and I took pictures and after I looked through them I realized that I had learn something about child protection.  So let me figure how to do this here.

     First of all, we went to the animal -- the orphanage for elephants where these elephants had been rescued from horrendous conditions, abuse, neglect, criminal activity of human beings, in some cases their mothers disappearing, and they needed to be rescued and protected, and that's the kind of work that ECPAT does, and there is an absolute role for rescuing and protecting children, as well as elephants, who have been abused, and also prosecuting those who abuse, and.

     I'm very pleased to know that Kenyan legal authorities prosecute poachers and others who abuse animals.  But all children, regardless of where they are, need more than protection and rescuing.  They need to be nurtured, and of course we saw that at the orphanage, baby elephants being nurtured, but they also need to be able to nurture themselves and to really take care of themselves.  Children also need for them -- I have to laugh, even though I took this picture.  (laughter) They need to learn to present themselves properly, so this would not be -- I'm not sure if this zebra is over 13 and could be on Facebook, but assuming it could I would not recommend this particular profile picture.

     They also need to (off mic) what's around them, so this ostrich, of course, does not have its head in the sand.  It's looking around.  They also need to get support from peers, so for example social reporting, for example being a bystander.  If -- an upstander, excuse me, not a bystander.  If a friend is being bullied.  Take -- we need to do that just as baboons are grooming each other.  And finally now children need to be free.  They need to soar, they need to thrive.

     We are in the midst of a global information revolution led by youth and you need to look no further than Arab Spring to see many examples of how a youth driven revolution fueled by the likes of Facebook and Twitter and blackberries and other tools of social networking and ICT has enabled people to achieve their highest aspirations.  It has literally helped to topple governments.  This is a very, very exciting time to be alive, and it's a very exciting time to be in the parts of the world where rapid change is taking place.  I know it's difficult, it is sometimes painful, but the result of this social revolution that is being led by youth and fueled by the Internet is really moving mankind forward. 

     So as much as I respect and appreciate and am touched by the stories that I've heard today of the challenges of the Internet, and we've heard many, we need to also consider the fact that there are tremendous opportunities and tremendous possibilities as a result of the Internet.  And as we protect ourselves against the risks, we need not to throw away the potential for the great possibilities that the Internet brings us.

     Of course there are risks in life, so I gave examples of football, bicycling, cooking.  These are all things that have risks, yet would we want to be without football, bicycles or cooking?  I don't think any of us would want those to go away.

     So the question is, who can protect young people?  Is it Government?  Many here think it should be.  Is it law enforcement?  Of course.  Is it parents?  Clearly parents have an important role in protecting young people.  But the answer to this question actually is not on this slide.  The answer is young people themselves.  The ultimate protector of young people is themselves.  Every child needs to learn how to protect him and herself and all children need to learn how to protect each other.  And that's not -- just not kind of rhetoric saying, oh, it's a good thing, but the reality is if something is going to happen to a child, it's probably going to happen in the presence of other children.

     So we need to teach children to be citizens of the Internet just as we need to be able to teach them to be citizens of their schools, of their communities, of their nations and of the world, and citizens take care of other citizens.  Law enforcement cannot arrest their way out of the problem.  Governments cannot legislate their way out of the problem, and even parents, which is the best line of defense outside of children themselves, cannot parent themselves out of the problem.  We need to encourage young people to learn to protect themselves.

     Now, Anne and I, and mostly Anne, have come up with four types of Internet on-line safety.  Anne came up with the first three of these.  And they're, of course, physical safety, the strange danger, physical harm, of being sexually abused, psychological behavior, freedom of being harassed and cruel to, and of course bullying is part of that.  Reputational safety, not putting things on your profile that will get you in trouble or kicked out of school, or embarrass you among your friends.  Then, of course, there is the security, the identity property and community safety, freedom from theft issues freedom from those people in America who are sending emails to Nigeria trying to get their money.  Or is it the other way around?  I can't remember.  (laughter) Either way, either way we need to protect ourselves and this is part of on-line safety.

     Now, interestingly enough I think we could have had had a meeting 50 or 100 years ago, and of course none of us would have been here 100 years ago.  I'm not going to tell about 50, because most of the things that we talk about when we talk about digital citizenship are really citizenship.  Most of the issues -- for example we talked about cybercrime.  It's crime.  When we talk about cyberbullying, it's bullying.  If somebody writes something nasty about you on a bathroom wall we don't call that toilet bullying.  We call it bullying.  If someone hits you with a pencil, it's not pencil bullying.  It's bullying. 

     It's mostly the same thing but there is what we call the net effect, the fact that the network or the Internet does change the equation in some very important ways that we need to know about.  For one, it could be permanent.  You can put something on your Facebook profile and somebody could actually copy it or cash it, even if you delete it, it may still be there. 

     So nothing that's digital should be considered temporary.  There is no eraser button on the Internet.  It could be copied and pasted and everybody knows that.  I have made the mistake, I bet everybody here has made the mistake of sending a document to somebody and it's accidentally wound up in the wrong hands.  Of course a lot of people can see it so that what may have been a very limited amount of damage in the analog world, where we shared maybe a bad picture or a bad experience with two or three of our friends, perhaps can be seen by thousands or potentially millions of people, and you don't know who they are.

     And the film one is I don't know if you have road rage in Kenya, but in America -- I grew up in Los Angeles, you can be driving about how soon the Hollywood freeway and you could be going too slow or cutting somebody off, they'll give an angry hand gesture, they might roll down the window and yell at you and most of the time they don't shoot you but that has happened.  Yet if I'm walking down Hollywood boulevard a few miles from the Hollywood freeway and I accidentally bump into a person, I'll say excuse me, he'll say, it's okay, and what's the difference?  The difference is if I'm in my car I'm in a 3,000-pound steel enclosed vehicle and eels not treating me like a person.  It's as if I'm not really a human being. 

     The same is true on the Internet.  We tend to think of the people on the other side of that screen as if they're not human.  But guess what, they are human.  We need to be careful about this inhibition, the fact we can't physically see and feel them doesn't mean we can't be around them, and that's a very important part of what we call the net effect. 

     I won't read this out but Anne and I wrote a document called on-line safety 3.1.  It was written about two and a half years ago in an attempt to reinvigorate the discussion in the United States, but globally.  We've presented it on-line and we'll continue to present it in Europe and in Africa and wherever people will listen to us, and it's really to make sure that the net safety argument is relevant to youth, to simply preach to them and try to talk to them about things that don't resonate with their own experience, doesn't get us very far, and whether that's about bullying or predators, they have to believe that it's true.  In a minute I'll talk about the risk of exaggerating the problem because all that does is lower our credibility.  Young people -- boy, we're doing it here aren't we?  Need to be participants in stakeholders.  It can't be me and old guys like Richard -- Richard -- just telling you what you need to be doing -- even Anjan, a little younger, it has to be young people leading in safety, just like you're leading the revolution, and for that matter the physical revolutions in our world. 

     Of course we need to promote good citizenship.  You have to have media literacy, be smart.  And we have to understand the value of informal learning.  Nothing everything you learn has to happen in school.  You saw I got most of my education at a national park.  Many kids learn on Facebook, they learn on Twitter.  There's value to informal learning.  That's very relevant.  In fact, there are colleges in the United States that are a little worried because some people are saying, maybe I don't need you.  I can go on-line and I can learn more for less money.  And that's a problem for some colleges. 

     So we also again have to be accurate and honest to kids, and of course, Richard, we have to encourage the industry to engage in best practices, and that's why ConnectSafely works with Google and Facebook and Yahoo and AT&T and other companies to try to put their feet to the fire to make sure they're doing everything that they can.

     Now, adults have a tendency to lock things down.  We like to put fences around swimming pools, and the reality is that they have their place, but the best way to control things is not to put a fence up but to enhance the filter that exists between our ears.  And so children, that is the way we protect our children, is to enhance the filter between their ears and to get them to do the critical thinking.

     We also need to put risks into perspective.  Fear doesn't work.  Fear backfires, it paralyzes, and it creates irrational decision-making, so we need to be honest with people and not try to scare them into being safe but educate them.

     Now, digital skills are very important because they build resilience.  The more you know about the technology, the stronger you are, and it also improves your other skills, and this was observed by a recent study from the EU kids on-line that was just released this month.  We also need to be aware that panicking about anything is dangerous.  A few years ago the American media had all of the stuff about predator panic, the children were at grave risk, but it was highly exaggerated.  Television shows are making a lot of money, newspapers were being sold, politicians were getting votes, but the reality is that it wasn't nearly as bad as a lot of the people said it was.  And I urge you around the world not to assume that just because bad things can happen on-line, that they do happen on-line. 

     And so when you talk about Internet predators, yeah, there are creeps out there who would try to harm children, but be accurate, be honest and look at the data.  To the extent that you have data, look at it, because we found that in America, although it's a problem, and although one child being exploited is one child too many, it was happening to a very, very small number of children.  Far fewer children than were exploited even by their own parents, let alone other adults they knew in the real world.  If you think the Internet is dangerous, look at the line at the bottom of the during the period Internet has grown the most, sexual exploitation gone up by 58%.  Not gone down.  I'm not saying the Internet gets the credit but don't plain the Internet.

     So Anne and I and others have done a great job to get people to stop panicking about predation.  They're worrying about bullying.  One college says 85% of the 13-year-olds have been bullied.  It turns out it's about 6% and about 3% have confessed to doing bullying.  Maybe it's more, maybe it's less.  It is not an epidemic. 

     Our children are not monsters.  Come on, guys, this is a wonderful generation.  These are not monsters.  You're not, you're not, and probably almost all of your friends aren't either.  There are a few.  We need to isolate them, but don't assume that bullying is commonplace.  I know.  I know.  I'll go.  (laughter) Because if we assume that bullying is normal, then it must be okay, and the way in which you combat bad behavior, whether it's drinking, smoking or bullying, is to make people realise that it's not normal, that 94% of the kids at the school don't drink to a level it affects their grades and at least 80% of the kids in America and probably the world don't bully, and there's evidence to show that by saying this, by not exaggerating the problem, you actually help alleviate the problem by isolating the ones. 

     So we don't want to go around saying that everybody bullies or that 90% of people bully, because that actually encourages bullying.  Be honest with people and there is data.  And this is an example of a school in the United States, and rather than saying, oh, my God, we've got a bullying problem, they're saying, no, 80% of the kids don't bully, and that works.  It works really well.

     So good examples, there are many, many -- I won't get into details, but there are many good examples of great programmes.  There's a tremendous amount of work being done.  The panel is a good example of it.  We don't need to go to to find one nor do we need to go to global poverty.  There's a ton of good ones.  Even my own son, and I'll put in a plug for him, he put out an album.  A CD, he got the album covered because he put something on-line and a 15-year-old in Australia drew the album art.  That's an example of how incredibly powerful this global communication system has.  Visit my son's westbound, he didn't pay me for the plug but put it in anyway.

     >> ANJAN BOSE: Larry, if you can wrap up.

     >> We know about the social revolution so that's the end.


     >> ANJAN BOSE: It was really, really invigorating, I have to say.  We started off with a very different perspective but definitely relevant to the issue we are talking about, and I just wanted it thank you for highlighting two things.  One is the net effect, and that the (off mic) of the images that goes out and stays out.  There are a few issues and I have some particular questions that kind of contradicts -- or not really contradicts but -- maybe not totally in agreement with what you said around only empowerment, but we will come back to that. 

     I know we are stepping into lunchtime here, and people -- we started a bit late so really I wanted to open up the floor and have questions for the panel, and maybe the panelists have questions for you.  So -- yes, please.  I would take -- any other hands?  I have the gentleman at the back, the gentleman there.  Yes, if we can start with Uta.

     >> Yes, thank you, and Uta (off mic) and Digital Opportunities Foundation from Germany.  I totally agree with Larry that children can learn when being on Facebook and that's why I would like to ask Richard -- Richard Allan, could you explain to us a little bit more your thoughts about kind of a kids' Facebook for the younger children than 13 age?  Thank you.

     >> ANJAN BOSE: Before I take your question, I didn't see our gentleman here has a question.  Sorry for not looking at you.  Sorry.  Can you --

     >> Andrei (off mic).  I also have a question for Larry's perfect presentation, and it was related to child on-line and young people on-line safety.  I don't clearly understood your thesis about the social revolutions in this context.  Everything is clear besides one fact, is that a good example of information security and child on-line protection when communicating in Facebook groups they come to the streets and they could be killed in public demonstrations.  This happened in the Arab world in the spring.  Thank you very much.

     >> LARRY MAGID: I can't deny that and all I can say is everything has its risk, especially revolutions.  And we have to -- I hope the people knew what they were doing when they got into the streets.

     >> ANJAN BOSE: I will have the question from you quickly, yeah.

     >> My name is (off mic).  I'm a generalist and I'm here from Arun, probably about the (off mic) enforcement, or the effectiveness of enforcement to deter or combat on-line crimes in the African context, so think we are getting somewhere.  Peter?  Peter had some -- youth from your perspective, from whom you have -- is it catching up?  I mean, the need to combat cybercrime?

     >> ANJAN BOSE: Excuse me, sorry, the first question was addressed to Richard Allan of Facebook?

     >> Yes.

     >> ANJAN BOSE: And the second question --

     >> The two of them can answer, Peter -- (off mic) youth.

     >> ANJAN BOSE: So either one of them.

     >> The policies --

     >> ANJAN BOSE: I think we have enough questions because we are kind of hard-pressed with time.  Can we give the floor to -- who would like to answer first?  I will take your last questions, maybe, because it's addressed to the young panel, so I'll let them answer first and then I will give Richard to answer your other question.  Peter?  You would like to answer or -- Jonathan?

     >> OLUGBENGA ADELEYE: I think young people in Africa, responding to the issue of cybercrime, they believe that it will affect their future.  They can't catch up with their counterparts in the world.  So now they are ready to move away from crime to development.  So -- because in Africa if you report to -- that is why we are strengthening police relationship.  If we are reporting to law enforcement, they don't know what you are talking about.  So it is only the youth that know something about ICT and the Internet.  So that is why we catch them young.  That is why we say, oh, we can do it on our own.  That's why the fact that we have partnership with the police and other law enforcement agencies. 

     So these young people, they are really doing something.  At the time.  At the time in Nigeria, you know, about ten children -- they were walking on the way, and they saw a policeman collecting (off mic).  No other (off mic) they just saw the policeman, and before we knew it the whole world is on them.  And we said what happened?  This man just collect 20 (off mic) and the to find out that he has collected 29 and they are (off mic).  So young people are really working.  Like I said, we have it in 22 countries in Africa and you can see from my diagram -- that young people are on the top of the job.

     >> ANJAN BOSE: Jonathan, do you want to just quickly share some point?

     >> JONATHAN SSEMBAJWE: Information is to important.  In most of the areas where we have sensitized young people on the proper use of ICT, there is a change.  So I think we should be support supported always to carry out more awareness on making ICTs safe.  Information is really changing these young people.  So there is a positive change in areas which we have reached.

     >> ANJAN BOSE: Thank you very much.  And I would -- later Richard answer the question, the other question he had.  I'm sorry for interrupting here.  Did Larry answer his question around the revolution, the social revolution?  Do you want to add more to it?

     >> LARRY MAGID: There are probably people in this room who have more experience than I do.  I have experience in the '60s in America through -- in our upheavals around the Vietnam war et cetera, and I was shot at, believe it or not, and I got there because of a mimeograph machine.  So should we blame paper?  The medium is not the problem.  The medium is what gathered us to deal with the problem, and again, if you're going to be in the streets, you need to know there's a risk.  And I do know that because even though I've never turned over a country, we did topple a president in the '60s and '70s, so --

     >> ANJAN BOSE: Richard, do you want to say something?

     >> RICHARD ALLAN: So on the issue of the deterrent effect of law enforcement, I don't have any particular data of African law enforcement activity.  Maybe we can find some, but I don't have any at hand.  What I can say is because of the medium itself is global, the deterrent effect can happen as long as the message gets out, that if you do this sort of thing on Facebook you will be caught.  And we have had evidence of those people who watch the groups and the places where in particular those who are interested in child abuse images communicate with each other, when we enforce you see conversations between them saying, hey, watch out, Facebook are on to you.  And from our point of view that's a success.  From an absolute point of view, we recognize that's not an absolute success because people will go elsewhere.  They'll look for the weakest point. 

     But I say, success for us is that are interested in these kinds of things at least in terms of the Facebook platform feel it's a dangerous and hostile environment for them, in terms of the under 13s, I have to be careful not to start a conversation running saying Facebook is opening up to under 13s.  We're not.  Our roles are clear today.  But what I can say is that the kinds of things one might think about in terms of under 13s, I think the number one thing you would think about is what is the appropriate level of parental involvement in an account. 

     So our starting point is for a teenager, for very good privacy reasons -- a teenager's account, the 13 to 17-year-old is entirely independent of any parental control.  They can choose to share things with the parent, but it's the teenager who makes that decision.  Clearly for under a 13-year-old and U.S. regulation reflects this and other legislation around the world, there is no expect the parent is involved.  And what one would have to think about is what would that look like.  Is it they can see every post, they can change the privacy controls, is it they give consent for various things.  It's not just a Facebook issue, but every service that is serving under 13s needs to think about that, and there are interesting models out there already of those kinds of services and then you have to think about the impact on the rest of the user community.

     >> ANJAN BOSE: Would you like to reflect on this gentleman's comment on the social media, the social revolution, because I think it would be appropriate.  If you want.

     >> I would just echo Larry's appoint, and in terms of -- point, we've created tools, people create revolutions.  People do good and bad things with the tools.  We believe that they mostly do good things with the tools.  Otherwise we wouldn't be making them.  Again, that's kind of a core value, and what we've seen is people do good, in some cases incredibly brave things, of which a very small part was the use of tools that people like ourselves built.

     >> ANJAN BOSE: Okay.  Thank you very much.  We have the question from the gentleman at the back.

     >> All right.  I think my question has been taken care of so I have two comments.  I'm the director of -- by the way, I'm a young person.  I hope I look like one.  (laughter).

     One thing that I wanted to point out is the issue of new users.  I think Jonathan talked about it.  I think this is where our primary concern should be.  When one is getting -- one is just learning to use the Internet, I think there are quite a few things that also come into play.  For example, research studies have shown that new users, the ones that normally do, for example, commercial transactions on the Internet and so on.  So with imagining a new user being met by the emails that Jonathan gave us, I think this is a very big tragedy and I think we need to start addressing such things.

     Secondly, I wanted to talk to Peter.  I think first of all -- first of all I think it's very important that you are accepting that there was a problem, or there is a problem, and I think we can only shake the negativity type if we acknowledge that the problem exists and take steps to address it.  It's not good for Nigeria, it's not good for Africa, and I thank you for accepting that.  Thank you.

     >> Thank you.  My name is Marco.  I'm not young anymore, but I was young before.  No, I want to congratulate the people on the panel, especially the younger ones.  I was impressed by the presentation about the situation in Ukraine.  There will be a cybercrime event in the Ukraine in a bit and I hope the stuff presented here can feed into this.  That leads to my question to my colleagues from UNICEF and ITU.  A couple people are complaining that they're meeting at the IGF again and again.  I like catching up with colleagues, especially Randy from Microsoft and others.  One of the things I'm wondering -- I think I see this as an advantage.  There's new people coming in but also a continuation.  Is there any plan to continue and use the value that we've seen here and keep it in the process, in other ITU activities, UNICEF activities?

     >> That's a very good reflection, you know, on the direction we are heading towards, and I will leave to you JeoungHee, or Priscillia.

     >> Thank you for your valuable question and which actually I want to know.  So luckily we could improvise to all participants and they had very good meeting with ITU Secretary-General two days ago and they also got a very good opportunity to take a picture with him individually and I think they can -- anyway.  So we are --

     >> (off mic)

     >> JEOUNGHEE KIM: Yeah, that's -- and then they have sort of like a promise from Secretary-General to continue his support to various participants.

     The one thing is, well, we believe that this one is really a good initiative and we're happy to -- IT happy to work with UNICEF (off mic) international also all (off mic) stakeholder partners.  We hope to continue this initiative, but we also need all your support to -- to raise this kind of issue and to -- well, support.

     The one -- I'm really happy to have the youth participants from all different continents.  That's one of the best things, the beauty of this workshop.  We know that we have some youth participants from Asia, youth participant from U.K., but happy to have the youth participants, especially from Africa, Congo, Uganda, as well as also South America, Costa Rica.

     We work hard, even work hard with UNICEF and (off mic) and either UN agency to support this youth participants.  Thank you.

     >> Priscillia, do you want to add more?

     >> ANJAN BOSE: Yes, one -- before I go to Anne, just a quick comment, adding on to what JeoungHee said.  And I mentioned this earlier before the start of the presentation.  We are hoping that all the deliberations that are going on here will actually make an impact.  We are not sitting together preaching to the preached, and we are trying to raise more awareness, no action, more commitment from global community.  I think that was one of the purposes of having this workshop in the first place.  Yes, Anne.

     >> PRISCILLIA HOVEYDA: I just wanted to add my support to what Jeoung said.  I think it's getting increasingly important to integrate youth views throughout the IGF.  We seem to have a policy thread and a technology or technical thread, and then we have child protection and digital citizenship thread, and it's really wonderful to see more and more coordination in the work involving youth, but youth need to be heard in all of those spaces, so if there's some way that we can integrate their voice into the entire IGF, I think it would be fantastic.

     >> ANJAN BOSE: Very much.  Do we have any question from the remote participation?  Nothing yet?  No comments?  Okay.  I think we have to wrap up.  We have to give the floor to Priscillia to wrap up the session, so if you can be very quick.

     >> I'm Yonas from Finland and I consider myself young.  I'm in a pirate youth organization.  First thing to the Ukraine.  To -- watch a bit about the terminology because the Internet is real.  Never, never say in real life when discussing Internet issues and real.  The Internet is real.  You can say away from keyboard.  Second, Larry for president.  (laughter) And thank you for telling about the whole mobile connectivity, how it works in Congo and so on, because that was very, very enlightening.  And in general, youth participation and hearing their voice, telling you -- everyone again, youth is organized themselves in IGF.  There is youth coalition, which will also give a statement at the main session, so if there's anything you want to do locally, maybe in your own countries that could help young people get along and maybe come here, then please communicate with us.  We're very glad to do the networking and help young people to get over here and share their expertise, or just interest.

     >> ANJAN BOSE: Yes, thanks for that comment.  I think we'll see that more often in the next IGF as well.  That's already happening, which is a very good news.  Are there burning issues?  Okay.  Jonathan, you had something.  Sorry.

     >> JONATHAN SSEMBAJWE: My question was to the Facebook.  Many young people when they're just starring, especially young children, they don't give the right age.  In order to access the services and contents.  Do you have any measure to deal with that?

     >> So we largely rely on community reporting, which we find to be effective.  People report other people who are cheating the system, and when they do that, we will -- we will offer -- we have some very special rules about how many times we will allow people to change their age.  So if they're just correcting it to their real age, we will permit -- the report comes in, we say, we can tell you're the wrong age.  We can tell you've lied.  You have a chance to correct it to the real age and keep your account.  If you don't we'll close it.  So that's the mechanism we have in place, but it does depend on other people in the community reporting those individuals.

     >> ANJAN BOSE: Okay.  And probably the final question of the day, I know there are some other burning issues.

     >> ARSENE TUNGALI: My question goes to football.  I would like first to thank you for developing Facebook Zero, no?  In my country because without Facebook Zero I would not be able to access Internet as much as I do.  Plus Facebook is free of charge in my country when you're using some networks.

     Second, I have been -- I have been -- I have been having some questions, some problems understanding Facebook privacy.  Settings, the Facebook privacy settings, and I know that many of my peers do too.  So is Facebook thinking of simplifying the settings or maybe create a video like Google, for example, does, to explain how to protect your privacy on Facebook and make it easy to download in phone -- in mobile phone?  Because in my region I can't download a video because it would take me three days for downloading a video.

     So finally, do you have any plans to make more Africa-friendly tools, like Facebook Zero, for instance, it's very hard to download videos without local -- with my local language, as I said before.  Yeah, thank you.

     >> RICHARD ALLAN: I think the answer is pretty much yes across the piece.  Our vision is that we would like everybody anywhere to be able to connect to our service, and so where we identify barriers to that, and in Africa one of the barriers was cost.  The other is bandwidth.  We've tried to tackle that with zero.  So that both tries to make the service faster by making it lighter weight and has the range of the mobile provider to get it to you at no cost and it's great to hear that that's popular.

     In terms of privacy settings, we're constantly trying to improve them and producing more educational material.  Sometimes we get it right, sometimes we get it wrong, and when we get it wrong, people use Facebook to organize and tell us how wrong we've got it.  We've just done a set of changes, which I think are good, both in themselves, but also really importantly, if you went back a year or so, you had all the privacy changes on the Web site, all the controls, and on the mobile you had pretty much nothing.  It was very basic.  You look at it today and I have the latest, latest version and you'll be getting it soon.  You look at it today, all those privacy controls are starting to be integrated into the mobile service, so I hope that will really help for folks like yourself.

     >> Booklet called Facebook guide.  Parents' guide to Facebook is being rewritten to reflect the changes, but it is all about how to set your privacy settings, so it's at, that's fb, as in Facebook,

     >> ANJAN BOSE: Thanks very much, Larry, and thanks.  We were kind of expecting Facebook to do that you know, going to the mobile era, and thanks for that.  I would -- it's a shame that we are running out of time and it's a shame that our workshop is kind of overlapping with lunch.  We don't want to keep people hungry, and I would -- you know, this leads us to Priscillia, who is going to wrap up the session for the day. 

     >> PRICILLIA HOVEYDA: Thank you, Anjan.  I would like to thank everybody on the panel and ITU and UNICEF, myself.  So the point I would like to make is how unique of an approach it's been today because we have young people, but not only young people from very accessible countries but also young people from countries that we don't hear about enough, and they are using ICTs sometimes at the same level as young people in more developed countries.  So thank you for the four of you for being here.  Tamara, Valya, and Arsene, you did an excellent job and I'm sure everybody can give you a round of applause to encourage you.


     I would also like to say that the organizers did a great job in bringing Larry from ConnectSafely, and also Facebook, who we don't see enough at the IGF and we hope to see more.  Maybe one more thing we could have added to the panel, a governmental presentation, so maybe for next year.  When it comes to the next step, the ITU COP initiative, as Jeoung explained, they made it possible for all of them to be here, and we hope to be able with ITU to bring more youth for the following years for -- again, from regions that are less accessible and have their voices heard. 

     And I will also echo what Anjan said about hopefully the voices will hopefully get outside this room, I will go further and say even beyond the IGF, and insist on the fact that we need more valuable research like the one led by ECPAT, because only evidence can feed into policy initiatives that would be reliable on the digital landscapes and the realities on each of these countries.  So hopefully we'll see this in a month or so, and many more, because it's many more than five countries in Africa.

     And so finish, I would just -- to finish, I would like just again to thank you all and if the young people want to say a few words before we all run for lunch, please go ahead and do so.

     >> Okay.  First of all, to present my thanks to ITU, to ECPAT, to UNICEF for allowing us to take part in such a great meeting and to share our perspective, our own perspective on ICTs.  Thank you.


     >> ANJAN BOSE: So just to formally close the session -- Jonathan, sorry.

     >> JONATHAN SSEMBAJWE: Young people in Africa would like to enjoy the same benefits of Internet and communication technology as our fellows in developed countries, but when it is safe without any risks.


     >> ANJAN BOSE: Okay.  So any voice -- anything from Tamara, please?  A final comment?

     >> [speaking in Spanish]

     >> Thank you very much to all of you for your attention.  In my country it's the kind of events that attracts attention, and I also would like to add something that she hasn't said but I would like to say it.  This is such an important day to her that she insisted this morning on wearing her school uniform, so she was like -- with the shirt from the school and she was very proud.


     >> ANJAN BOSE: Yes?

     >> Okay.  I'll be quick.  This is my first participation in IGF, and I visited several sessions with youth participant, not only us, and you know what I mentioned, usually I saw the same faces, so in these meetings or these workshops, and my challenge for the next year is that actually Government representatives, NGOs, not only (off mic) but Government representatives who actually make decisions, they should be there, you know.  They should not only allow us be here, but they should face us as a -- are they afraid of us or what?  (laughter) thank you very much.


     >> ANJAN BOSE: Okay.  So I think I should close the session here.