Protection of most vulnerable children online

22 October 2013 - A Workshop on Security in Bali, Indonesia

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     >> YULIYA MORENETS: Ladies and Gentlemen, good morning welcome to the workshop 327, Protection of the Most Vulnerable Children On-line, and this strategy or framework on child on-line protection for the developing countries. We apologize for the slide delay, we were checking the sound, because we have a number of video messages to show you. So, today, what we would like to do is to discuss the child on-line protection issue with the focus on the developing countries. We would like to talk on how to empower or how to protect the most vulnerable children on-line. As well as to discuss, do we need the framework or strategy or child on-line protection for the developing countries. So I would like to say, that when we speak about the vulnerable children, we take the definition of vulnerable people, which is given by the agenda on information society.

Fist of all, I would like to say as well, that our workshop, today, is a discussion. So we would like to welcome interaction between participants in order to have this dialogue today.

     My name is Yuliya Morenets, I'm with the Cybercrime International and we work on Cybercrime and cybersecurity and child on-line protection is our -- one of our priorities with the focus of the most on the most vulnerable children. And actually, I'm pleased to co-organize and co-moderate this workshop today with a colleague of mine who is Mr. Hago Dafalla from the University of Guzira in Sudan. Welcome. Before we open our discussion I would like to underlining a few points. In order to more clear what we would like to achieve today and what we would like to discussed it. Because it will be number of discussions going into the field of child on-line discussion during this IGF forum and other forums. First, I would like to say when we speak about child on-line protection today it's not only about child abuse images or important owe graphic content or child pornography but the global child on-line protection how we would like to discussed it it's a global issue.

So mainly protection -- well privacy of minors, they use of electronic services by minors and liability of advertising companies or advertisers this is also the how to assist victims of Cybercrime. Actions on-line, being minors or on-line threats. The liability of parents as well as the liability of people who can involve minors the illegal activities and many minors themselves. When we refer to child on-line protection we will have in mind all the aspects and issues we would like to discuss. Secondly, what we would like to achieve is to discuss the current situation in the developing countries and the rest of the world and to see if we have differences, specificities, of course, having in mind the child on-line protection is an important issue in each country and, I believe, for every citizen.

    

     We have today with us a number of key participants who will help us to understand and discuss the issue and the aspects of just mentioned so. Fist of all, we'll introduce them in a minute. First of all, I would like to welcome them. And to thank you for having join thus morning before the opening session. Thank you so much for being with us. And I would like to refer to Hago for the first introduction of key participants.

     >> HAGO DAFALLA: Hello my name is Hago Dafalla. I'm happy to be here to discuss very important issues and protection of the children. Children is the future. If we have a good country and have good leader to lead the world. If we fail to protect the children today, we fail to protect tomorrow. So I need, because children are the most precious thing. So we all need to be to protect your children. I have two participants, speakers, Susie Hargreaves, Susie from IWF, and Mrs. Kim Sanchez, Microsoft, private sector United States and other groups.

     >> Welcome Susie and Mrs. Kim from Microsoft. We'll discuss these issues together in a minute. I would like as well to welcome Preetam Maloor, from ITU, general Secretariat who will discuss this issue together as well we have and we hope the video will work, we have one or more participants I'm going to go from IMPACT and I will introduce herself remotely and help as well to try to understand what IMPACT is and we have Adrian Hall from Extensia, a private sector video message from him. So we'll welcome him and pleased to you have here. Hago, I would like to refer once again to you. Because one of our objectives was to discuss the current situation in the developing countries. In other countries in the rest of the world as well. What is the situation in Sudan?

     >> HAGO DAFALLA: It is not good. Because Internet is free. It is very cheap in Sudan. You have -- every children should have phone so you can browse anything. Even in our -- most of the children are under 18 years. All this, as children. Many problems face Sudan. We have separate tactics. And now we consider the children. Internet is a part of cybersecurity in our -- so we need in Sudan to work in this field because anybody can attack people social media, mobile phone, so we need to protect people in Sudan because Internet is free and because all people have browser by mobile phone from anywhere. Also we need to advice people in Sudan, we are working on these issues and also ICT in my country to prepare in next month a couple of workshops to address this field. And also have some proposal in my country with -- to go with this protection -- also have a Web site in my country.

But it is not solution to some Web sites. We talk about this. We discuss about this issue is by Government. Also I have, for cybersecurity crimes, Internet crimes, but all these laws is not updated. We need update by Government and by the committee. So I have committee discussion in these very important issues in my country and I have workshop and Government of Sudan. Thank you.

     >> YULIYA MORENETS: Thank you for this situation for this field and situation in Sudan. I would like to ask participants if we have participants from other countries what does the situation in the field concerning on-line child protection in your countries? Would you like to share your experiences? I do know we have participants here from Korea, A number -- experts in the field. Would you like to share your experiences and bring this to the table to discuss afterwards in details? Please introduce yourself.

     >> Hello, everyone, hello, my name is -- Alla from -- City Ambassador Program for Hong Kong and I want to say in Hong Kong there's no specific law on child protection specifically. And I believe, the Government should have a lay about. It I feel like child protection is important in Hong Kong as well. There's been cases of cyberbullying in Hong Kong. I think this should be taken action upon more. So it's important that Hong Kong people should be more aware of like consequences of some Internet issues such as cyberbullying. Some people, children, teenagers in Hong Kong get cyberbullied a lot and there's been recent suicide cases of a young Chinese girl who contemplated suicide because of being bullied on the Internet. And I believe, in Hong Kong, the law should be implemented more.

     >> YULIYA MORENETS: What is the situation concerning vulnerable children? As I was saying when we have vulnerable children we think the most fragile populations or fragile children with social problems, disability, children with disabilities, what is the situation. Are these issues addressed in your country?

     >> Actually, on-line problems for children in Hong Kong are not as fear or serious other countries. I feel cyberbullying is one of the most common issues in Hong Kong so yeah.

     >> YULIYA MORENETS: Thank you. Do we have other experiences you would like to share or I -- yes, please. You don't have Mic.

     >> Yeah. I'm Larry Maged with Connect Safely. I want to pick up on the comment about vulnerable children. I served on the Internet technology task force Internet safety technology task force through Berkman Center a few years ago and our task force looked into issues of vulnerability and it was clear if you look at the sum total of children sexually exploited or otherwise abused on-line you see a very high proportion of them come from particularly vulnerable use. They're having issues at home, whether drugs, alcohol, sexual abuse by family members, and the reason that is important is two reasons, number one, owe so that we can put our energy and efforts into serving this population and so we don't assume every young person in America or in the world is at the same risk level as the particularly vulnerable population. One problem with Internet safety in the early 90s when I got involved is one size fits all mentality, to say, okay, you hear of children going into chat rooms and engaging in sexual conversations with strangers.

And you Act as if every child is likely to do that. And it turns out that's a very small minority of children. So, the analogy I like to use is, in America, if I were getting on a plane and coming to let's say London, I would not take a Malaria medication but if I were going to certain parts of the world I would. But when it comes to Internet safety we inoculate all the wrong people the entire population for situations that affect a particularly small number. That's not to say any children is not theoretically at risk it's possible to get Malaria in London. But overall we have a highly vulnerable population we're not severing and in a section were over inoculating many people who need primary help but knot don't need serious situation like many Internet safety experts have done in the U.S. and elsewhere.

     >> YULIYA MORENETS: Thank you so much. Thank you for bringing this issue. And what I hear is, we do need a specific approach. Maybe if we will discuss this later if we need -- if we have a need for strategy, but what I hear we need specific approach for this target group. Do we have -- thank you so much. Do we have other -- please. You have the Mic here.

     >> Okay. My name is -- I'm from Germany, from the Opportunities Foundation and what we are facing in Germany I can say that the group of children is very heterogenous group and there's several reasons why these children might be vulnerable and especially as opposed to the risks and stat on Internet. Our approaches that we're working with social workers because in many European countries social workers are perfectly well fit to address young children that are in vulnerable situations. But on the other hand, they also need the social workers need better to understand which role the Internet plays in the life of these children. And why they are especially vulnerable when it comes to use of the Internet. So we are providing training for social workers. And then, they can spread out to these vulnerable children and it's a very successful approach.

Thank you.

     >> YULIYA MORENETS: Thank you so much for this experience. Do we have -- can we say we need to reinforce or develop specific capacity building programs for social workers or people working with these target group of children? What will be your opinion on this?

     >> Yes, what we see is that social workers are usually in interaction with families that are living in disadvantaged environments for example. So they are kind of a contact person for these families as well as for the children. And they usually they have kind of a trust full relationship. So that children can trust in the social worker that he or she will understand and so, in many situations, children are likely to confide especially in these persons more for example than to confide in a teacher when they are in a situation where they might be bullied or groomed on the Internet because it's a special relationship between social workers and the family and children so that might help.  

     >> YULIYA MORENETS: Thank you for your experience. I think you can give us ideas for the -- of the needs. Do we have other experiences to share? Please, sir.

     >> Good morning, my name is Mohamed from a Foundation Developing in the -- Community Foundation from India and United Arab Emirates. What we are kindly planning to do in combination with human resource development, we are developing a new curriculum that will start from the KG1 to upper grades. Internet safety that includes security and cyberbullying and how to handle. So we're planning to develop this curriculum and put this curriculum in the school level. Along with this curriculum we invite teachers, I mean parents, parents to the school and train the parents. Because I'm coming from India and many of the parents are completely illiterate about computers and don't know exactly what is going on. So we are training the parents along with teachers and along with the children in a group. This is what we're developing in India.

With the help of --

     >> YULIYA MORENETS: Thank you for this experience. The question, how to empower vulnerable or fragile children on-line is in India or part of frame of the curriculum just mentioned?

     >> We're planning national level. But we'll take small state and try to implement it in the state and then take it as a sample to implement in other parts of India. The vulnerability is very high because some states you can say can see among the transparency very few person like five person and smart phones are very easily available, very cheap. So every child is holding a smart phone willingly or unwillingly.

     >> YULIYA MORENETS: Thank you, again. Do we have other participants who would like to share the experience to? Please.

     >> Hello, my name is Lubdo Guize from Holland. I've been working with disadvantaged youth all over the world for ten years now. And I have one issue in this whole setting basically, if we work with teachers, if we work with parents or if we work with social workers, one of the things that I've been noticing the last couple of years is that they're always too late. So it's always about solving the problem and not about not getting into the problem. So, that is something that I would like to address in this session. Because we can train -- I would definitely like to hear from you how it is successful in Germany I know the German situation a bit and Dutch situation very much and social workers are just always like you said like parents, not computer literacy and we can train them, but then the people that will assault the disadvantaged kids will be trained a little more than them and that's the issue.

     >> YULIYA MORENETS: Thank you for bringing this to the table. You're just picking my you know question for the conclusion. How to be up to date actually. Do we have an answer from German --

     >> Yes, my answer directly it's when it comes to the technical aspects then you're absolutely right the children are more acquainted and that's also double bind because of the social workers usually they skip all the computers smart phones and tablets out of their work because they know that the children know better how to use it. But, that's more the technical part. It's not the part about what values to you drink for example into social network. So social workers need to understand how important the Internet is for the children. And that they build up their social relationships with the use of device which is not so common among the social workers. But when we started the project we had a survey around five European countries among social workers and it turned out that many of them already have their own experiences in using social media but they were not aware how important it is for the children.

So, That's why I think if they learned this it's not so much about keeping up with technology it's more about learning how important the Internet is for the young generation and then they are better prepared to include it in their work and then they're not running after the children but they can go a little bit ahead. They might.

     >> Thank you.

     >> YULIYA MORENETS: Thank you. I just have something that came to my mind when you were telling actually with a question. -- strategy with child on-line protection with different pillars and we'll discuss the different pillars that can compose these potential strategies turning to the -- I know that ITU works in this field, as well. Can this be a solution? From your points of view?

     >> Can you repeat?

     >> YULIYA MORENETS: If we develop a kind of strategy at national or regional level of child on-line protection and answering two different questions different aspects so if the strategy will have a number of pillar can this be solution from your point of view to be on how to be up to date?

     >> I guess of course it's good approach. But at the end, we need to focus on educating the children as much -- and work on peer to peer education as well. In the end if we have strong youth, which is not disadvantaged and if connect with the disadvantaged youth that's where we can get results basically which will be in front of the problem instead of after the problem so. That is -- I mean that's something I want to stress in this situation and obviously there's many solutions but when we look at professionals in this area, usually they're too late and I agree with you actually about the technical aspects. But then, again, we had disadvantaged youth for many, many years and the values when it comes to on-line or off-line are not that different. So we've been into the situation for many, many, many years.

And now there is a technical aspect on top of that. And that is something that we need to address. In my personal experience, working with again disadvantaged youth all over from world from U.S. to -- countries and social workers and teachers are just not up for the job right now.

     >> YULIYA MORENETS: Thank you. So if I can pick up, to facilitate the equation better, integration and maybe could be one of the pillars or part of the pillar of the potential strategy on child on-line protection if we agree we need actually this solution. I think we have another experience to share and I would -- afterwards, we'll turn and have the opinion of our participants. Please, I think the lady -- do we have -- I'm sorry. Would you like to share something with us?

     >> Yes, I'm also from Netherlands, but we run a help line for children about on-line sexual abuse and what I notice is that the reports that we receive from children, they're not only from vulnerable children. They're coming from all parts of society actually. And so, that's basically based on our practice. Like I don't know maybe they are vulnerable in a specific way but what I see is that they're just coming from all parts of society. And so, what we also notice is that they become younger and younger and younger. So we receive reports from like 8 year olds and 9 year olds. And some other things I would like to mention is that the reports that we receive, most problems we see as problems that children do to each other. It's not big, old groomer or pedophile it's the children that do harm to each other. So that's the biggest risk that we see and I think it's really about education.

But, it's not that it's just vulnerable children. That's what we see.

     >> YULIYA MORENETS: Thank you for sharing this experience with us. And I think it brings us to the point of that we need to discuss the solutions now. And I turn to Susie from Internet which foundation I know you work to take down child abuse images and pornographic content if we take the legal language. How do you proceed? And what do you do to stop the content to be elsewhere? Susie?

     >> Yes. Okay. Thank you very much and Thanks for inviting know come today. I'm very happy to be here to talk about the work we're doing in the UK. And the first thing I want to do is make a distinction between harmful content and criminal content. So, we -- the IWF is UK hot line for reporting criminal content on-line. That's on-line child sexual abuse content hosted anywhere in the world. Now that's different to stopping children having access to harmful content. And in the UK at the moment, the two issues have become very con natured to IWS agreement is very much about making sure that no one has access to criminal content and interesting in a Governance point of view because we're a charity, self-regulated body and independent of Government, and we're independent of law enforcement. But we work very closely with them both.

And we are funded by Internet industry. And then slightly by the EU as part of UK safer Internet center. So, I wanted to just explain what we're talking about in terms of child sexual abuse content. We're talking about worst of the worst. Last year we took 81% of images we removed were children ages 10 and under and 4% children age under 2 and 53% were rape and sexual tort tour of children including adults and child. So we're talking about very much the worst of the worst images. Now we're the most successful hot line in the world at removing content in our own country and that's because we have all of the partnerships in place and we can take content down in less than an hour. And that's because we work with the Internet industry who work with us on a voluntary basis. We also have a blocking list.

Which we're not able to take content down. The best way to remove content of child sexual abuse is to issue notice and take down and remove it from the source. The next thing you can do is have a blocking list and we have a blocking list. Where you put all of the URLs on that -- we have child sexual abuse content hosted outside of the UK, less than 1% is hosted in the UK. And we keep that content on our blocking list until such time as it is removed.

    

     In terms of how people know about us and what we can do, the public report to us, so a member of public will report us to through looking at the Internet and find out how to report us to. We will then assess a public report. But as for next year we will proactively seek content. There's been a big review of the issue in the UK. So we will actually be looking out for content as well as responding to public reports. And how to stop people from doing that. We have a major issue on child sexual abuse content around the world. The police in UK openly state that between 50 and 60,000 people are looking at child sexual abuse content at any one time we know from our own research young men 18 to 25 are the most likely to stumble across it. So we need to stop people going there in the first place. So it's about education.

It's about behavior. It is about awareness. And it is ultimately about you us working in partnership in collaboration there is not one organization that can do it on their own. It's not about a social worker or a teacher or Internet industry or the police or us, it's about all of us doing it together. And we cannot do anything without the awareness raising in schools and police don't anything without us and we certainly can't do anything without industry and role of industry is hugely important to this but not just one organization's responsibility to remove it.

     Okay.

     >> YULIYA MORENETS: Thank you so much and thank you for mentioning all of the interest here the private sector will be back in a minute. I would like to just come way challenging question probably. What do you do to stop this content to be -- to appear elsewhere. We know when we -- we can block a Web site or have a list of Web sites to blog. And but in five minutes it can appear and another Web site can be created. How do you proceed.

     >> SUSIE HARGREAVES: Okay aim back on, yeah the majority damages we see are duplicates. So as images go down they come up again. We are very, very proud of the fact we made UK one of the most hostile territories in the world to host this that doesn't -- the problem then presents is that it's all hosted elsewhere. And actually, it is a war of attrition you have to commit to removing content if it goes up you take it down if it goes up you take it down. You have to raise people's awareness to stop going there in the first place. We actually do campaigns with awareness arising campaigns and work with international partners and everybody has to adopt a zero tolerance approach. My view if everyone had the same approach as in the UK there would be nor for this content to hide. We're working now with developing countries who don't have a hot line to provide them with a backup solution so they can report us to and we'll assess the content and we all knee to work together.

As you're right, every kid has a mobile known India and everybody has access to the Internet and it's a question of all working collectively to have zero tolerance approach. And it won't be resolved tomorrow. It's a huge issue and probably will never be resolved but it's essentially essential it is because every single image is a crime scene. Every single image is a child who has been sexually abused and there is not justification for one image to be up there. So it's about working together.

     >> YULIYA MORENETS: Would you recommend this approach to other countries? To developing countries maybe?

     >> SUSIE HARGREAVES: I would recommend to developing -- some countries don't need -- we start to see changes in patterns in terms of where the content is hosted and we're starting to see different countries in our experience of child sexual abuse images is that generally it's white children being abuse the by white men and we are starting to see changes in patterns in terms of the content. So it's absolutely essential that every country does have somewhere to report it to. And but clearly if you have -- if are you not hosting it but looking at the content in Gambia or Ghana or somewhere you need a hot line to report it and we recommend that people use us as a backup solution because we have some of the strictest laws in the world in terms of child sexual abuse content. If it's reported to us we'll seize it under UK law and take action as we do now.

Removing it from the source in UK are working with international law enforcement or international law enforcement hot lines through -- organization and then we can help them remove. It the other thing is we would not set up a hot line in another country. Because we need to control the content that we analyze in the sense that we don't want people using our software, our IP, to analyze content that is outside of our -- we make a clear distinction between dealing with criminal content and we don't have an opinion ordeal with legal adult pornography. That's absolutely outside of our remit. We only to deal with criminal content and we need to make sure that criminal content under UK law. So, that's the area that we'll deal with. But we will help any country to do that.

     >> YULIYA MORENETS: Thank you. It brings us to the issue we need a global approach and probably kind of strategy framework at national or regional levels which will take into account national specificities of different countries. Do we have questions for Susan? Maybe we can have one or two questions? Please.

     >> I also work for the hotline and help line. But I wonder you mentioned that you see differences in the content? You can be a bit more specific what changes do you see?

     >> SUSIE HARGREAVES: We are starting to see and hear from other hotlines and work we're doing we're currently working in fact my colleagues are in Maritia at the moment setting a backup hotline reporting solution for them and we were in Uganda recently and working with ITU and CTO to do country wide assessments without hotlines and we're seeing it in our assessments that they are -- they're seen, for instance, in Africa we're starting to see black children being abused by black adult males in the main. So starting to see slightly different demographics and changes in the images. But obviously, in Thames of the work we get, in the UK, still predominantly white men and white children.

     >> YULIYA MORENETS: Thank you so much. You just mentioned the role of the private -- public corporation. We have a remote participant actually video message because it's representative seal of private sector of the company Extensia and it is night time in Europe. He sent us a video message. We asked him to answer a question. How to -- if the public works for a lot with ITU and other companies especially in African region and we ask him if public? Private corporation, is the future -- and how to increase the interest of the public sector in the field of child on-line protection and I don't speak only about child abuse images but number of issues I mentioned early at the beginning of this workshop. So I would like now to launch this video message from Adrian and I hope because he was quite proactive at the end I hope you see it launches a discussion among us.

Hoping that this sound will work as well.

     >> ADRIAN HALL: Good morning Ladies and Gentlemen, thank you very much. (Audio not clear) -- discussion. What I feel is very strong -- and important agenda of child on-line protection protecting the more vulnerable of our society in this kind of world. My name is Adrian Hall and -- and ICT and in Africa predominantly and we do this through the development and delivery of very high level business -- which -- together for public/private sectors and third sectors so we have -- regulators and service providers and technology providers and -- as I said supporting -- what we've seen over the last couple of years is a growing recognition of the need that while it is important to drive the sustainable growth of the industry, it is incumbent upon us as the people who can make those -- in the industry to make sure that Internet developers and access to the opportunities that it presents become more widely available through better connectivity through more devices and through better education and we have to make sure that the Internet is a safe place where we would be happy for our children to go and explore and really take full advantage of the many opportunities that the Internet can bring in terms of social development, in terms of social cohesion in terms of engagement and in terms of education.

We cannot watch over the shoulders of all of our children while they use the Internet on a regular basis. The access -- quite substantially through mobile devices, it's not necessarily in the computer or classroom and this makes it more difficult to monitor. You asked know contribute to the discussions today and put into perspective of whether or not from a -- perspective I'm seeing a growth in the collaboration shall we say between public and private sectors? And is there a crossover or recognition at least at this stage that there is an issue here that needs to be addressed? And is there a will for the people let's be honest -- is there a will for them to come together with I shared objective of making the Internet a safer place. And the answer to me, is very clearly yes. I see multi-collaboration and I see that there's also recognition and this is important I think, that whether you are developing policies or whether you are looking to generate business as a private entity, the protection of the vulnerable members of our society is equally important.

Let me tell you why. If you're a service provider, yes, you have to invest in technology to support your ability to provide that protection on-line. But if you do that, then -- when a school is looking at which service provider they should use, we want to provide your children with a safe environment. So doesn't that then make the service provider the service provider of choice and doesn't that create the differentiator that is required so that you're not necessarily thinking about -- Internet costs and trying to offer the lowest rate to your users but you also are inviting them on the basis that you are the safe service provider. So as a parent, when you are looking for the service provider that is going to be thinking in terms of protecting your children, as the -- that's the service provider you're going to chose.

     So it is imperative from service provider perspective not just to think of this as a good thing to do, but think of it as a good business sense as well. And I am pleased to say in my experience although this message doesn't portray service providers in the private sector, do look at child on-line protection. It's an important issue. They look at it as important issue from perspective of perhaps -- themselves parents but when they start to look at it as a commercial benefit as well, let's not forget they're a business. They have to make money. They have to report it shareholders. Let's give them a reason to be able to put that message across and to justify that investment in protecting that environment. This is -- I raised this as a specific point of view because I hope it will create discussion amongst the group and as I can't be there with you, and I would be open to continuing this discussion and communicating with you further.

I have -- coming up in December it's a -- engaging you to -- and there will be a strong focus on child on-line protection. So I hope you can join us there if you want to know more information please ask the moderator I'm sure she did advise you and put new touch with me if you would like to continue these discussions. Thank you, again, for inviting know participate and for my contribution I hope it stirs a little debate and discussion for the rest of the day. Thank you very much.

     >> YULIYA MORENETS: So we would like to thank Adrian for this message and I think little bit proactive message at the end, maybe not. I would like to have your opinion. Thank you for you to be patient. I know it's always difficult to follow video messages. Do we have representatives of the private sector here who would like to hear your opinion on this? Do we have comment? Comments on what we just heard? We have Kim from Microsoft will come to you in a minute. Please.

     >> I would like to follow up on his comment from a perspective of service provider as acting like a parent and I have a very good example for this just a few weeks ago go was participating a debate in the Netherlands. Our discussion on the Ministry of justice and security, and there were -- it was a panel with only youth inside it and in the room were about 60 people from Government, from the police, et cetera, and the discussion came to GTA 5 from their perspective aggressive and dangerous game which comes through vulnerable children as well as they get exposed to crime and sexual in the game as well as murder. And actually we as teenager don't mind about it and we buy the games for young children when we're at the store because they're too young to buy the games. Actually the funny think what is happening is when the discussion started and we set this -- our opinion about it, almost the whole room and all of them are parents, immediately started discussion between the people in the room And actually sharing experience about educating their children to become more active and to participate in the discussion with their own children about the game.

This is a good game for you to play or about activity on-line as well? And this is what I want to emphasize, that, yes, do Act as parents and do stimulate parents start this discussion with their children and it's the most natural and most gut feel way for parents to help their children because it's also you really must understand it's a different perception of risk and vulnerability between youngsters and parents as a generation gap between it. You should talk about it with youngsters as well. It's not top down of protecting them it's also teaching them and understanding children of what they think is risky on the Internet.

     >> YULIYA MORENETS: Thank you so much. What you -- I think what you say is mainly we do need to engage with youth and to have their voice and I think it's one of the points of the ITU framework that we will ask Kimberly to present on in a couple minutes and we would also have representatives of youth from south Korea here and I'm pretty sure they just agreed with you if I'm not mistaken, could you please?

     >> We're from Hong Kong to clarify. I'm thinking of responding to your point on industry, what are you talking about initiative because takedown is definitely not simply -- it's maybe more on platform and probably registry would play a point as well?

     >> Our membership scans upon the whole of the Internet industry giants like Microsoft to small filtering companies. We work closely with ISPs and we work closely with serve engines and social networking and all of the areas of the Internet industry (Susie) obviously the Internet, ISPs are the main organizations in terms of removing content. So, we work across the whole span. One of the things I wanted to just respond to is point about young people's risks is that the majority of our work is for very young children. Last year we did a -- well actually earlier this queer we did a short piece of reserve 40 hours of unlisted time looking at self-generated images teenagers have taken of themselves and children we assessed or young people we assessed anything between 14 and say early 20s because we can't tell accurately and we found in a 40, self -- and a half thousand images were taken on a phone and loaded to pedophile Web sites. What young people are not aware of is risk around self-generated images and sharing those images and that the whole idea of once it's out there, it's out there. And also in UK, you know, it's age of sexual consent is 16 but image of anybody under 18 is child sexual abuse image you're therefore committing an offense. So actually it's really important young people understand the risks they're taking themselves particularly. I don't know if you have seen this self-generated images what we call sexting although we don't like the expression if that's a patent you're seeing -- pattern you're seeing in Hong Kong? (Lost audio).

     >> Sexual images Kline included on web cam that is actually took details about his activity and LTB should be included on the vulnerability. And another point, on child abuse I think registries can actually take active point on top of ISP and social networking sites which they can probably think of how to be involved.

     >> YULIYA MORENETS: Thank you for this experience from Hong Kong and we would like to be back -- I don't know with we have a couple questions and comments we will be back to new a minute. I would like to be back to this discussion and the issue of private/public partnership and I think Hago has a question from him.

     >> HAGO DAFALLA: We have Kim from Microsoft. What's your opinion of this field and experience?

     >> KIMBERLY SANCHEZ: Sure. Thank you thanks for having us here today. And I think I want to pick up on what Adrian was commenting on the video message that the industry has a role to play here. And it's not just Microsoft. But it's Microsoft and Google and facebook, Yahoo, big guys and even some of the smaller players as well. We see it as our responsibility to be in this space. We want Internet to be a place where you and your kids and anybody wants to come and have a safe experience on-line that's good for all of us. And we very much see technology playing a huge role in this and a company like Microsoft we offer family safety settings on our consumer product but we do more than that. I'll get to that. But, guidance and education. And that's the role that I play within Microsoft is making sure that we're providing our customers and our consumers with tips around on-line safety because it very much starts at that high level piece when you're talking about educating parents, but teachers, and advocates and law enforcement and in a way that they can talk to and connect with kids that's going to resonate with them because when we go in and talk to kids and lecture them they pretty much tune us out.

So I like the notion of kids mentoring kids and bringing them into the equation. Kind of third pierce and third area we're focused is partnerships and Susie mentioned that we're involved with the Internet watch foundation. But we partner with number of organizations. I have worked on ITU, COP framework and we work with law enforcement all over the world. And we cannot do this alone. It's very much the message. But we have a role to play. A couple of things that where we have invested and in helping child exploitation we created something called photo DNA. And this is something that we make available for free to all law enforcement and Google and facebook also have licensed this technology as a way to create a database of the worst of the worst images to make sure that we are removing those and taking those down and so they don't proliferate across the Internet.

And the other piece we have invested in is trying to figure out with researchers, academics, how technology is being used to perpetrate these crimes and how can technology be used to thwart these crimes. We have six different academic researchers working on this issue and they will report back to us in the spring of next year. And we hope to make some progress there. But, we you know picking up against we see this as a role and responsibility for not only Microsoft but for many in the street to help keep the Internet free and unfettered For all of our use.

     >> HAGO DAFALLA: What is your --

     >> YULIYA MORENETS: We can take one question and be back for other questions afterwards.

     >> Do you truly believe in -- because you actually quoted Adrian a little bit and I wrote down his quote because it triggered me, Internet is a safe place where our children can be happy.

     >> KIMBERLY SANCHEZ: Do I believe it's a safe place I don't believe --

     >> Do you believe there's a risk-free society in general is Internet -- should Internet be a safe place completely 100% where all children can be happy all the time do you think it's realistic Kim come I don't think that's realistic I think there's bad things that happen on-line and off-line world I think there's risks in general and all of society and to portray it otherwise would be wrong. To think that that -- we can tell our kids you will be absolutely safe in whatever environment. No. I think the point is we need to educate our kids and let them know about the risks and hope they're resilient and if they encounter something bad they know what to do to mitigate that risk.

     >> So we have to embrace the fact that Internet is not a safe place for 100% and that's something we need to embrace and every time I see people getting into really like up tight reactions we need to create a safe place, well, I mean, there's not no such thing as a completely safe place. So we head to to like I agree with you, focus on the empowerment when it comes to that. And if I can bridge that to the lady in the middle I'm sorry. I don't have your name here.

     >> Susie.

     >> Sorry, Susie. You were talking about self-generated images looking at the Dutch context, actually for the last 15 years, bullying was the number one issue for kids. Now, last year, that changed. After research they found out that actually grooming is and everything you know connected to that is the biggest issue for kids themselves. So, not for parents, but kids themselves. Said, well this is the first time actually bullying is not my top irritation on the Internet. But actually grooming is the top irritation and a lot of it obviously has to do with the self-generated pictures and stuff like that and again, there's no such thing as safe place. How do we address this? You know? Not with a snap chat technical solution. Because that don't work. So we need to, again, empower, train,  educate.

And I cannot say it enough. There's no such thing as a safe place so we need to address that Kim come I would add there's no such thing as one size fits all like Larry Magett it has to be culturally relevant and accurate what may work in Bali may to the work in Holland or middle east who knows I completely agree with what you said. There's -- it doesn't do us any good to say you're never going to be harmed on-line. That's not true. But, what can we do to address and arm kids and anybody who is on-line to know what to do and actions to take.

     >> So how is Microsoft addressing that then? Because you have some like filters and parenting you know tools. But that's not yet empowering right that's trying to create a safe place in a sense. But it's --

     >> KIMBERLY SANCHEZ: It's one tool, one tool we give to parents who want to have some protection especially for younger kids and making sure they don't access certain technology.

     >> So how does Microsoft does empowering do you care about empowering do you put something in there.

     >> KIMBERLY SANCHEZ: Absolutely again that goes back to my role and I would also point to my colleague down here recently named chief on-line safety officer for the company I'll let her weigh in absolutely. Education is the primary thing we do. And we feel that is our role. Along with a lot of other industry. And making sure that people, parents, teeners, and advocates and law enforcement are via pair of what is going on and how to address it in a culturally relevant way, appropriate way.

     >> YULIYA MORENETS: Thank you, Kim, I think what you just raised before you work with number of organizations and you have a number of partnerships with NGOs I know this before the workshop we worked together and you actually support -- activities and empowerment. I would like to thank you for bringing the question that I -- one of the issues we wanted to discuss actually the liability or the self-regulated created content by minors because it's also the top issue we see in France for example is something that which is created by minors themselves and is the involvement in illegal activities even if they don't know it's called illegal activity by minors themselves and I think we need to address the issue as well.   As I understood what Kim was trying to say, as well, is the private sector all of the private sector is very important -- the role of the private sector is very important but we have risks and challenges for children and kids and young people in the real world and on-line world.

We need to develop an approach. And what I hear is mainly we do need a kind of strategy and framework but regional because we need to take into account once again specific needs in -- that we have in different countries. And we have remote participant, Mrs. Amelia Gupa from IMPACT. Unfortunately it does not work but we asked her to have a video message. One minute and a half and we asked the question because IMPACT together with ITU they work on the framework on child on-line protection and we -- which have a number of pillars and we'll introduce these pillars to us. But first of all I would like to have this message from Amelia and we could discuss this issue afterwards.

     >> Hi, my name is Amelia Goa I work with -- International Partnership Against Cyberthreats -- Malaysia. Just to give a brief --

     >> YULIYA MORENETS: I'm not sure you can hear.

     >> IMPACT is operational -- agenda together with industry partners, society and academia the current issue of ITU IMPACT provides signer security issues to 146 countries in order to be able to help them improve security capabilities and -- in the world. IMPACT also works together with ITU and child on-line protection that's is very unique element on the global side of security agenda. We have worked and continue to work together with ITU to help countries develop framework, strategy frameworks for child on-line protection. Is this the future? Yes. What this means with operationalizing child on-line protection is that we're able to provide tangible experiences for stakeholders and, therefore, create an environment for capacity to be built in order to empower employee professionals working with children that the children themselves to be able to protect themselves on-line and with access to Internet being so slowly but surely becoming -- and basically becoming more than necessity and tending towards a right that means societies, communities, countries are interconnected and this becomes a fundamental aspect or element to helping us realize that child on-line protection needs to be taken hold off right at the grass root for people to be able to create awareness and share experiences and develop practical tools and generally contribute to the global initiative at large.

This work to create framework, strategy framework and child on-line protection is not only for developing countries. This is simply because one size does not fit all. Thank you.

     >> YULIYA MORENETS: We would like to thank Amelia for this message. And we apologize for the remote participation problems from technical perspective we face here. Do we have a -- we can have one comment and afterwards, we would like to take a number of questions coming from remote participants. Because we would like to include them as much as possible in our discussion.

     >> SUSIE HARGREAVES: Very quickly, you know he want to go back to the issue of protecting children on-line about collaboration and partnership. So not one organization just can't do it on their own. At the moment there's a real tendency to demonize Industry and industry is not the only answer to protecting children on-line. We're all part ever the answer. And you know, we are a third of the UK safer Internet center and our job is to take down content not to go after the bad guys that's the police's job and our job not to do awareness raising in school that is our partner's job and we all have different ways to play in that and that's how the jigsaw comes together to make the whole. And I also think that of course the internet is not totally safe. That's life. I was at a conference recently where the police said two things one think the unthinkable and never let your teenager in their bedroom with a computer on their own.

And you thought that is just awful. I let my teenager in the bedroom with a computer on her own and I trust her. We actually talk about safety and she understands all the rules and all that kind of stuff and I see some of the worst stuff you can possibly see on the Internet. So I think we need to just kind of you know, be objective and be sensible and go you know, we all need to work together. There's very, very bad stuff on the Internet but there's some great stuff too. And just be realistic about it.

     >> Thank you, Susie for this comment. I think we have a number of questions for participants and to discuss here from the remote participants we do have. And I would like afterwards to go and have the expert opinion of ITU Roxana Radu.

     >> We have a follow up comment from Amelia sharing experiences in the national strategies together with COP partners has given us insight not only cultural and societal of communities. One thing is clear though everyone is tasked with protecting the child on the Internet and it is then enough to show how dangerous the Internet can be for young people and encouraging digital responsibility and citizenship to bring positivity fly is also key in addressing the issue. What is also important is that youth and children themselves are part of the process. It is true them that real progress can be measured. This is what the national and regional strategies set out to do holistic approach to child safety on-line.

     >> YULIYA MORENETS: Thank you for the comment from Armenia. I think we have a question for -- from ITU.

     >> ITU team we have very active in this field. But I need to ask them about what's the most effective response that would be implemented in countries and these countries take this subject seriously.   And also do you have specific response for this how to direct people or children. Thank you.

     >> First of all thank you very much for -- inviting know speak in this workshop. It's our pressure to be here. A bit more about the ITU work in this area, because we referred to it many times. Child on-line safety is, of course, a global challenge and global responsibility again and again and that's why in 2008 we launched global cybersecurity agenda which Amelia mentioned and it's -- of international corporation and IMPACT is one of the key initiatives under global cybersecurity as you know and child on-line protection is the other. And what ITU does is provide us with a framework which includes five pillars, work areas. One is, of course, looking at this as holistic way to tackle this problem. One is legal measures for example harmonization of law and technical measures, standards. One of them organizational structures.

Building the right institutional frameworks for corporations. And capacity building which is awareness-raising, children, among others and international corporation providing framework for all stakeholders. So we are trying to address this holistically and we are trying to take a multi-pronged approach here example working with stakeholders and risk assessment and developing tactical tools and awareness raising and knowledge sharing and entire works. And, the most important thing is we have to recognize, and it's clear, that no one can do it alone. So, for us, as a unit, we play the role of facilitator but we work with all stakeholders and many of them are here. And our initiative includes multiple international organization. UNICEF, more than 33 society organizations and many from private sector.

And this is about the general initiative. And some of the work we do is supporting establishment of hard lines which experts suggest we actually -- taking it and replaying or facilitating guidelines, frameworks. Indicators to indicate the problems and one of the most important things that we are doing and Amelia mentioned that existing countries and building national frameworks on child on-line safety to harmonize existing policies and programs and development conference of main works at the national and regional level. Now, the problem or issue that he raised about difference between developing and developed countries. I think Susie mentioned everyone needs to have zero tolerance approach. Of course we do know there's differences in developing world and implementation in the developed world I guess step by step we're seeing more comprehensive programs and actions.

With the national entities and working with all the partners and stakeholders, clearly you can see that is being very active because it's used as case many times today. Unfortunately, in the developing world and LBCs we see there say lack of coordination among the actors. And for example, the law enforcement may not be working well together with the hotline or help line or ISPs and Ministry of communication may not be coordinating with other Ministries involved or working with children. So, that's where the focus is kind of to help countries develop national strategy which kind of irons out the glitches in the coordination. So this is our main focus and we've been working with many countries Nigeria. Ghana, these are just the recent ones we're working with to kind of help them establish national strategies and, we also have global -- one is working group on child on-line protection which gives forum for not only 193 Member States but all stakeholders to come and discuss ideas and brain storm and policy issues and technical issues and capacity building issues and tools you might want to share with others.

So, we, of course, look forward to working with all of you and we encourage you to join this initiative. Thank you.

     >> YULIYA MORENETS: Thank you so much. I think we have -- thank you for sharing your experience and -- child on-line protection. I think we have a number of comments. I would suggest -- we'll be back to the final concluding comments and questions. We talked today and what we tried to discuss actually we have a number of approaches and initiatives as Susie was mentioned before to tackle the problem. But, however, new challenge as pier. And so, my question would be, so how to have up to date solutions and this point and of conclusion I would like to come with the less questions to all key participant and have concluding comments and suggestions from our participants as well and remote participants. So can we talk about effective response in the field of child on-line protection taking a number of aspects not only child abuse images and pornographic content in different countries and in particular in the developing world, without a strategy on child on-line protection.

If you can just answer us or come with short answer like one phrase, what do you think? Kim the question is can we have an effective response and approach in the field of child on-line protection without regional -- without strategy in the field of child on-line protection. Practically do we need a strategy on child on-line protection?

     >> KIMBERLY SANCHEZ: Kind of every country have a strategy?

     >> YULIYA MORENETS: At national or regional level or specific to developing countries.

     >> KIMBERLY SANCHEZ: We applaud the work the ITU is doing in this space and it's something we participate in and I think it's very informative for those countries that we are behind that. You know, coming from the U.S. we don't have a national strategy. But I think Susie said earlier, very well, that it is something we all have to do, whether it's industry or Government or law enforcement and we all have a role to play here. And I think each country has to do it in a way that makes sense for them. That's my short answer.

     >> YULIYA MORENETS: Thank you, Susie.

     >> SUSIE HARGREAVES: Quickly in many country it's en shrined in law particularly on criminal side. I don't know you necessarily need a strategy. I think it's helpful and certainly what ITU is doing is good because it helps focus those countries and in terms of dealing with in bay way it's like you mow we have a conversation ITU low hanging fruits in the sense it's an area people can collectively get together because people care of protecting children And actually work together and it's an example of how we work is because the issue is when ear all totally united and that's a very positive place to be. And in the UK we have something called UKCCIS, UK child council on Internet safety, and there's 200 members I think but the board is 30 of us and it's industry, law enforcement, three Government ministers and from three different departments And actually that's really important so we actually all get together it's starting to come to fruition because we're all sharing the role between share what is important.

     >> YULIYA MORENETS: Practically the question would be potentially yes.

     >> SUSIE HARGREAVES: I think depends on each country certainly in ditching countries the work ITU is doing is great because it's a guide, it's a template it's a focus and it's really helpful and it is lessons learned and best practice you know we've all been through as everybody says the Internet was invented today it would not be invented the way it's invented because we're so -- you can learn lots of us had to create hotlines and reporting mechanisms because we had to not because it started from grassroots level and from sort building blocks level. And that's why they can do that live from the experience.

     >> YULIYA MORENETS: Thank you, Susie for that. What would be your suggestion, your answer? Do we need it? Do we need to develop this kind of strategy on child on-line protection at regional level or specifically for the developing countries.

     >> My answer is again yes. At the bare minimum to raise awareness this these countries that you need to collaboration. And ideally to have 'very effective response to what we face. My answer is yes.

     >> Thank you. I think we have a matter of conclusion we more or less agreed that we need to have a more cooperation and collaboration and neighbor to go for development of a kind of strategy or framework on child on-line protection taking different aspects at regional or national levels. And though I think we do -- we can take still three, three more minutes for final comments from the audience. We have -- we'll give the priority to remote participant and we'll take your question as well thank you.

     >> Roxana: We have a question from Pakistan and -- and his question is how can we have Internet and Cybercrime law as required for protection of innocent mind of our next generation, legislation appropriate fine, punishment, maybe following -- pornographic stimulating abuse contents for example pictures and graphics and videos and literature as well as obligations for source providers for abuse Internet contents?

     >> I think if I might bring or a point to this comment and question, I think ITU just mentioned the work that they do on the framework child on-line protection and one of the pillars is legal aspects. So I think definitely yes, I don't know if Prita would like to comment on this but definitely, if we develop -- if we raise the need for the need -- the need of this kind of framework, we do have a pillar on -- with the legal answering. And I think we have another comment?

     >> JACQUELINE BOSHARE: Thank you my name is Jacqueline Boshare colleague of Kim's at Microsoft. I wanted to make a couple comments response to gentleman from Holland and some others. I would first say that it doesn't behalf any of us to really talk in salutes. So, we don't say safe. We don't say secure, we don't say private. We say safer or more secure or more trusted. Those types of things. Any place in society you're not going to have that 100% guarantee of safety or security or privacy or trust in a situation. So that's one thing we need to keep in mind. We look at it in terms of risk management. And so it's about for us at Microsoft it's about maximizing those desirable on-line experiences for people not just youth but for people in general and it's also about minimizing those that are tied to risks associated with content or contact or conduct or commerce.

And that pretty much covers the gamut. We're definitely in the business of empowering people. Whether it be parents or teens or youth or everyone we work with. We have empowering message for parents and we have technology for them to use and we want them to make their own decisions we were talking about the frame working are work and saying up to a particular country and up to a particular region I would say up to a particular family how they want to pursue what their risk situation and risk mitigation strategy will be. That's not going to minimize what is out there and available for children and youth and others on the Internet. At the end of the day we're talking about behavioral change and that is a very complex and very difficult state to achieve. We start with awareness and move to changing people's attitudes and changing their behaviors and excuse me beliefs and then maybe finally their behaviors and finally to one other point about sexting and other things that were coming up I would say, so many years we've spent and this is back in any youth as well before there was Internet, we talked about protecting kids from other people.

Mostly from adults. Now, we talk about little bit protecting kids from peers as well and we also need to talk about protecting kids from themselves when we talk about sexting and sexploitation and other things coming up.

     >> Thank you so much. I think it would be great concluding word. Unfortunately I would suggest to continue the discussion maybe by taking a coffee and discussing together but we have to stop because we have another workshop that will take place in this room. I would like to thank our key participants for being with us today. Thank you for the audience. Thank you for your great comments. I think it was good dialogue today. Thank you for remote participants and remote moderator and of course Hago Dafalla for being with us and thank you and let's work together to having an effective response on this. Thank you.

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    This text is being provided in a rough draft format. Communication Access Realtime Translation (CART) is provided in order to facilitate communication accessibility and may not be a totally verbatim record of the proceedings.