Youth Coalition on Internet Governance

29 September 2011 - A Dynamic Coalition on Other in Nairobi, Kenya

Session Transcript

September 29, 2011 - 11:00AM

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The following is the output of the real-time captioning taken during the Sixth Meeting of the IGF, in Nairobi, Kenya. Although it is largely accurate, in some cases it may be incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. It is posted as an aid to understanding the proceedings at the session, but should not be treated as an authoritative record.

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>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  Can I ask everyone to maybe come sit a bit closer here so we can have more intimacy here discussing youth things.  And also when I put the mailing list paper running, it is not digital, my goodness, then you don't actually have to run anywhere.

All right.  We are starting to get all set.  As you can see in the remote participation window, we are putting a pad up which is the place where I will personally write everything down, and we will check the schedule, and finally even make a statement together.

Anyone who wants to join this document that is over there now, viewing for everyone and everyone can join -- oops.  Somebody change the URL; there.

The URL, the Web address for this document, which everyone can see and modify themselves, is piratepad.net/ycigigf11.

So the end part was YCIGIGF11.

So we can really see all the participants here on the right side, who are here viewing and modifying.

Welcome to the Youth Coalition on Internet Governance, Dynamic Coalition.  We will have some remote participants, and people are off line and following stuff, but no matter.  This is mainly for getting to know each other and planning for future workshops, and synchronizing our information on how youth is viewed, and how youth is participating in Internet Governance.

There is a preliminary schedule here, which I will try to follow, and which of course if we want to keep this in a very discussion form, please go ahead and suggest some changes.

Everything, all the talks concerning YG, sorry, Youth Coalition on Internet Governance, if you are going to write on Twitter, then please use hash tag YCIG and of course, when you are writing about IGF, write about IGF 11, so everyone can follow what you are saying; and also, others can see, there.  I can also make a log file here while we are at it.  But yes.

I will let Tim Davies talk a little of the membership thing and more technicalities, but first the main question about youth participation on Internet Governance, I will talk just a few basic things about it.

My name is Joonas Makinen.  I'm from the Pirate Youth of Finland, and I came along in this project one year ago in Vilnius in IGF 2010.  And I've been following this for one year.  But there are other people who have been along for two years.  And the progress we have seen so far is that youth are starting to be more noted, but there is still the issue, the original worry why YCIG  was started that youth are still showcased quite a lot in IGF, and local Internet Governance systems, and not that much incorporated in the system and participation.

This is what we are here to study.  How do we get youth more involved, what can we do ourselves?  And are things as bad as they seem?  Personally, what I have seen compared to Vilnius is there are more interested young people involved, maybe not physically present everywhere, but more young people interested in Internet Governance.  I have also seen many young people in the panels, which is a very good thing.

Now, please think about these issues, and how we could perhaps make things better.  But to talk about the Youth Coalition on Internet Governance first, to get the bureaucracy out of the way, could you, Tim, perhaps give a little briefing about the whole system and membership?

>> TIM DAVIES:  Hello.  Thank you all for joining us in this session, in a rather large room for where we normally have met in very small rooms.  So this is rather strange to be in such large space.

The coalition on Internet Governance, we must say thanks to Rafik, who is not here with us, who did a lot to drive for the coalition and was keen on making sure we had a session on the agenda this year.  The coalition was born at Sharm El Sheikh in 2009, with a charter which we have just put back up on YCIG the log, and I think best if I read you a bit from the charter to get us a sense of why the coalition exists, and what it's here for.

In the preamble, we say the Youth Coalition on Internet Governance was established between youth activists and youth organisations from civil society, Government, and private sector which share interests on youth issues and Internet Governance.  So we aim to be a multistakeholder coalition.

We have a vision focused on the importance of the Internet in young people's lives, and in many countries they are 95 percent of those on line and using the Internet.  Young people are part of a digital generation.  Yet there are still challenges also, as to large issues.  Young people need to get strongly involved in the process of Internet Governance.

And the charter says this should not be limited to typical youth related issues like literacy or protection of the young from harm from online content, but the active involvement in leadership of young people should go beyond that, into all issues as equal partners in the Internet community.

We have a number of points in the charter of principles and values that should guide our work.  Those are defending and promoting the interests of young people in the debate on Internet Governance, being open to all youth friendly interested parties, not just young people, being as horizontal as possible in the decision-making process, all members able to express their opinions and be taken into account, respecting the fundamental rights of all children and young people to have their voices heard in decisions that affect them, and challenging systematic discrimination that intentionally or unintentionally excludes young people from meaningful dialogue and decision-making, and seeking to promote the inclusion of all young people regardless of age, ability, race, or gender.

Then we have a number of specific objectives around helping the IGF become more inclusive to young people.

Now one of the constant challenges of being a Youth Coalition on Internet Governance is many people only are here for a few years, and some go on to be involved in the IGF on a long-term basis, but people struggle to get funding to come back and participate.  So we have been working through the YCIG mailing list, which you can find the link from the Web site, and we will be able to discuss how we can meet with those charter objectives when we also have this constant refresh of people involved. 

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  Thank you very much.  Could you, Tim, also mention about the membership programme, how it's working now?

>> TIM DAVIES:  Good point.  In the charter, we agreed we would have individual members and organizational members.  But we have perhaps not necessarily stuck to the charter in keeping a list of members.  The individual charter has founding members listed and founding organizational members listed, including Childnet International, DiploFoundation, Electronic Frontier Foundation, and Net Mission and others.  In practice what we have been doing is treating anyone who is a member of the mailing list as a member.

So there may be some work to be done over the coming couple of months about rechecking the charter and seeing we reflect how we have been actually operating, which also suggests we should have a Steering Committee of three people which we have not had over the last couple of months.  I've tried to do some of the things, around stimulating engagement on the mailing list, but neither Eunice or myself or others are formally elected as Steering Committee members.

And you should all feel entirely empowered to depose us from our self-assumed positions here of convening the meetings and take on those roles, or challenge the coalition to perhaps have a vision in its charter and structure.  But we do have people who are actively supporting, some who are here, some who aren't.

The mailing list I believe is 70 or 80 members now, from a wide variety of organisations. 

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  Thank you, Tim.  The current Steering Committee, it's a bit fluid concept at the moment.  And I could say that I'm very welcome now in chairing this session, but I can also be your contact person later on as well if you need to do that.  But we try to keep the bureaucracy to a minimum.

First of all, to get a view of what is happening at the moment, any people interested in the topic, please join the mailing list.  This is the first important thing.  Actually, I put a paper there going where you can put your name and E-mail address, and hopefully your country as well, so we can quickly identify who are interested, because we are really interested in a worldwide view on how youth are participating and what are their chances.  This is not about youth.

This is about everything that youth can be involved with and these issues are not just local.

Of course, if there are any cases, any let's say events that you are arranging locally, or are simply participating, please do promote those, maybe in the end of the session, so we can, don't know, maybe travel there to your country and see what is going on.

Please get your business cards rolling, and let's start some introductory round.  I can start again.  I'm Joonas Makinen from Finland, and I came along to this IGF thing one year ago.  I'm still young to it.  I'm vice-chairman of the Pirate Youth of Finland, and I also handle international affairs.

It's quite a, I'm quite honored, and quite interested in being in this international circles.

If we could start here, please state who you are, what organisation you represent, if any, or if several, because that also, that is something people always forget to mention, and what sort of challenges or progress you have seen with youth participation, and if something local.

>>  There are several organisations of course, obviously.  I'm Max, representing the European Youth Forum, umbrella organisation of youth organisations in Europe here, together with Peter.  My own organisation is the European Youth Press, the pan-European organisation of young journalists.  I'm personally based in Berlin, and my academic background is in media law, and currently I'm finishing my Masters here.

I've both the interest from the volunteering and journalism perspective, and from the academic point of view.  And this is why I got involved in Internet Governance issues, so far not on the global level, but on the European level.  And I'm one of the co-organisers of the New Media Summer School prior to the European Dialogue on Internet Governance this June in Belgrade; also where we met here, we are going to continue this for next year's EuroDIG in Stockholm, and that is definitely something that we want to present here later.  So that is about me for now.

>>  Hello.  I'm Peter, originally from Slovenia, President of the European Youth Forum responsible for new media area, a new topic for us in our work plan.  Usually we are an advocacy and capacity building platform speaking on behalf of young people in Europe.  But new media is new in this sense for us, and we try to develop a new policy paper on this.  So that is why I'm also here in person to commit to this, and to see a bit what the challenges are at the global level.

We have taken part in the EuroDIG, and our representatives have in the past been present as individuals and as members of our member organisations.

But, youth Forum as such has not been so visible.  We want to improve on that.  And we definitely see a role for youth organisations in all this, because we believe it's great when you have individual youth voices speaking out, and we had that a lot during this IGF which makes me very happy.

But at the same time, I feel that in order to have a continuity and also address the question of representativity, we need to include youth organisations more.  There is space for both individuals and youth organisations.  We want to work on assuring that at least from the European side, and work with others at the global level as well.  Thank you.

>>  I'm Nasma from Switzerland, Swiss youth representative to the United Nations.  So I'm involved in issues, and Internet Governance is more a personal interest.  I was as well involved in a New Media Summer School at the EuroDIG last May.  That is when I really started being interested in this topic, and trying to see what young people can contribute.

I think that what just Peter said is that, is really important, is that it's not enough just to have young people here.  It is also very important that these young people that are here continue the process, and that when they go back home, they have projects, they have things that they want to focus on, and then come back again to the IGF and present what they did during the year, that the IGF is not a single event, but this process thing.  Thank you.

>>  I also have to introduce myself.  I'm Amera from Geneva.  I'm here thanks to Rafik.  I am a human right activist and especially in censorship.  I'm now running for the elections in Tunisia as head of an independent list.

We are the youngest list running.  We have 27 years old both -- I'm sorry for the English, but I thought we will have to have translation.  I speak French but I understand English. 

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  Thank you very much, and good skill, and luck to your journeys there.  Tim, could you still introduce yourself?  I know you are doing very good work in logging everything over there in the document.  But do tell who you are and where you are from.

>> TIM DAVIES:  That is a good moment to invite someone else to do the typing into the document for me.  So I can be in the remote participation.  I'm Tim Davies.  I run an organisation called Practical Participation, a company but working mainly in the not-for-profit and Government sectors supporting organisations to involve young people in decision-making.  I first got involved in stuff as a young person, now definitely in the young adult category here.  And I've been convening a workshop at this IGF on challenging myths about young people and technology.  A lot of my work focuses on helping organisations to use technology effectively, not to be scared of it, but to think about embracing the opportunities in safe and effective ways. 

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  Thank you very much.  While waiting for the row to finish, could you start from the beginning, from the back there?

>>  Good morning.  My name is Brinik Joli.  I represent here the Council of Europe which is a regional organisation of 47 Member States, based in Strassburg, France, and which promotes rule of law, democracy and human rights.  Our work in particular for the building a Europe for and with children programme, which is a transversal programme of the Council of Europe promoting children and young people's rights throughout Europe.

One co-aspect of this programme is to promote also child and youth participation, and more specifically meaningful participation.  So that is why I'm here also, to pick up your brains to see what are the expectations, and how the Council of Europe could contribute in a meaningful manner to youth participation and to Internet Governance, especially as the Council of Europe is also active in many fields relating to Internet Governance.

I seize this opportunity to ask you a quick question.  What is your definition of young people in the framework of the Dynamic Coalition? 

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  I can answer that we wouldn't really include people who are older than 30 along.  Then again, I have to say personally, I would take people under 28.  But Tim?

>> TIM DAVIES:  The charter states that membership in the committee is under 30.  But I think in the past and in the charter we have tried to talk clearly about children, young people and young adults as three groups we are working to empower.  That is something we might want to come back to, to think are we empowering all those groups and supporting all those different groups to get involved, as there are some distinctions in there. 

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  It is also a very important distinction, because it can be harmful to group all the people who are less than 18 for example in one group.  They behave differently on the Internet and have different capabilities and participation.  True.  Sir?

>>  Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.  My name is Mark Misiko.  I'm a student at Strathmore university, which is a local private university here, and I love Africa which is a research centre which was launched recently.  So I'm actually here to just hear the process of IGF and how the youth can be involved.

At Strathmore we are involved in a lot of mentorship, and we have done a lot of programme training, in terms of boot camps.  We go all the way to Uganda.  Probably we will be going to Rwanda in the next coming year.

So I guess I just want to know what's happening.  Thank you. 

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  Good enough.

>>  Hello.  I'm Avis, I'm 14.  And I'm one of Net Mission ambassadors, and Net Mission is a programme by dot Asia whose aim to promote inclusion and youth participation in the Internet.  We as ambassadors have undergone a series of trainings on discussion of, for example, privacy, censorship, etcetera.  Then we will participate in international conferences, for example, the ICANN in Singapore in June, and Kenya IGF that we are having now.

Then we will bring back the experience we have to Hong Kong to conduct committee projects, because we hope that we can use what we have, what we have learned to contribute back to the society.

>>  Hello, everyone.  I'm Lily Kong, from Hong Kong, also one of the Net Mission ambassadors.  I'm a student from University of Hong Kong.

So as Avis just said, we are, after attending the international conference, we bring something back to Hong Kong like different community projects.  So we actually organise some Internet Governance committee project in Hong Kong like YIGF, so in Hong Kong or Singapore, like we go to Singapore and be those university students' mentors and tell them what the importance of Internet governance.

We as knowledgeable volunteers, we have to work together to create a better Internet environment.  Yeah, thank you, everyone. 

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  Do you believe those are special issues that youth can bring your perspective to?

>>  We hope that by bringing more knowledge about Internet Governance back to Hong Kong, we hope that we can arouse awareness of teenagers to participate more on topic of Internet Governance, because in Hong Kong, most teenagers just focus on playing Facebook, etcetera.  But we hope that we can really get more teenagers in Hong Kong, which is an international city, to get more involved, and because firstly, by the Hong Kong teenagers, then we hope that we can spread it to other parts in Asia.  For example, we are planning to expand the mission programme to Taiwan or some other country, yes.

>>  We want to be enlightened, and we have to be an inspirer like bring the Web closer by bringing the different community projects back to Hong Kong, yeah .

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  All right, from the back.  Please.

>>  Good morning.  My name is Nytori.  I'm representing Communications Commission of Kenya.  I looked through the agenda for today and thought this would be a very interesting Forum to attend.  That is why I'm here.  Considering that I'm a youth, I thought it would benefit me as well.  I'm from Kenya.

>>  Good morning.  My name is Linda Kamunto, also with the Communication Commission of Kenya.  I'm here to listen to my fellow youth, to hear what goes on in other countries, so that I can also help some of the people from my school to learn about the Internet.  Thank you.

>>  Hi, everyone.  My name is Eva.  I'm from the Kenya Human Rights Commission.  And basically I'm here to learn.  Thank you.

>>  Hi.  My name is Jude.  I work in Kenya in the private sector.  I'm way above 30.    (Chuckles).

But I'm young in spirit.

And so a lot of times, because of what I do as a software developer, I work with young people, and in that, I would like to be able to share what I'm learning from this conference with them.

I also give talks, especially motivational talks to schools in Kenya, at least in Nairobi and sometimes in university.  And what I'm going to gather from this Forum here, I'll take back to the guys in schools and the university.  Thank you.

>>  Hello.  My name is Camilla.  I'm from the Danish Media Council.  You may know my colleague, Grute, she has been here before.  I am over 30.  And, but I'm managing our youth panel, where we have children from 12 to 15 regarding matters on use of online technologies.  And in that sense, we are very inspired by the IGF issues.

So that's why I'm here, to see if there is anything I can take back, and maybe tell you a little bit about our youth panel. 

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  Could you tell me about, between the ages, well, 12 and 15, what do you think are the, let's say the areas of knowledge that the whole global IGF could benefit from?

>>  I'm just reading your question up there. 

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  If you talk with people who are between 12 and 15, who you work with, what do you think are their best, what can they give to IGF?

>>  What they can get out of it? 

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  What they can get out of it and what could they give to it?

>>  Well, I think first, it's, I use IGF issues with the children, because it's a very good way to make them interested.  Our programme is mainly about online safety.  So it's, often it gets a little bit, well, the children don't really care about safety.

So if you are going to talk about safety, they don't want to, they don't really listen.  But if you bring out the issue in regards to their future, that actually matters to them, which is the IGF issues, then they are actually interested.

So I use the issues in that way.  For the young people, I think, well, the very, sometimes it's difficult for them because it's very big issues.  But they think about it, and we debate it, and I think for them, it's an eye-opener.  And it's not, in that age group, it is not normal to think about these things.  But when they are forced to think about it, they actually find it very interesting.

But they also are very kind of, well, as the Net Mission girls mention over there, they are just very happy using the technology, so it's a challenge, but it works. 

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  Thank you.

>>  Hello, my name is Julio.  I'm Italian.  I don't actually represent any real organisation right here.  But -- .

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  Imaginary ones.

>>  Yes.  And also since I just turned 18, I guess I can represent that kind of group, age group at least.  I did join the Sharm El Sheikh IGF youth group.  We had some debates and everything.  So I did get interested into the topic.  I have already an experience list, I'll say that.  I came here out of natural interest.  I think it's a really interesting topic.  I don't know what else to say. 

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  Yes, it's also important.

>>  It is really important, yes. 

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  That's enough.

>>  How do you turn off this thing?

>>  Push it again.

>>  Okay, my name is Agin Muruki.  I could be the youngest because I'm above 40, not a youth but working with the youth.  I'm from an organisation called The Network for Informal Educational Institutions, and this is an organisation working with children and youth in the slums.

One reason why we are so interested in this programme is because we feel that technology or Internet is the answer to access to education for all, all education for all.  When I talk about education for all, we have started a programme which is using videoconferencing to reach out to out-of-school youth.

These are youth who are not able to transit to secondary school.  They did their primary education, but because of socioeconomic reasons, we are not able to transit to secondary school.

They are at the moment maybe working as house helps or even in small businesses, and for that they cannot be able to go to ordinary schools.  So you start at secondary schools that are transmitting secondary education to 16 centres within the slums, and the schools learn in the night.  By so doing, we are able to provide education to the youth out of school.

This challenge is that, you know, this youth were not able to go to school at the right time, because of socioeconomic reasons.  Today, we are talking about one of the pillars of our development, as education.  And without basic education, then they cannot even transit to college education.  And we also are looking forward to IT or Internet, making it very very cheap and affordable for higher education, because so many youth in Kenya have not been able to access secondary education, and so they do not have professional skills, or they do not have careers as per Se, because of financial challenges.

We are looking forward to IT or Internet being the answer to this challenge.

And I'll be at this Forum because we are representing a very very big large number of youth in slums and community, or our youth representative at this workshop had a meeting outside, so he is not able to attend this.  But I think I'm going to give him the contact for the organisation, so that he could be there, our contact person maybe in the process.

However, actually, I've worked with the young people, and working with the young people, and I'm always ready to network and interchange with various institutions, organisations of the world.  Thank you. 

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  Thank you very much.  Now, I didn't invite explicitly in here in the schedule or programme, but in order to actually get more out of the workshops, I think we should have at least some pointers on key issues we are identifying.  Tim, do you have something on remote?

>> TIM DAVIES:  On remote, we have Linae also following us from Electronic Frontier, Finland.  I'm not going to try to leave his last name.  You might be better qualified for that.

>>  Binen.

>>  From EFI Finland, where they deal with issues of copyright, European digital rights.  We have a number of other remote participants following us, though none have yet introduced themselves.  I'll invite them to do that also if they wish. 

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  We are not alone, definitely.  In order to reach some key points to do better work in the workshops and in the future, I personally think one of the biggest problems with IGF has been that we haven't identified or haven't reached a conclusion on some issues.  That is why talking gets a little, gets to be just talking.

If there are any sort of things you would like to point out, what are the problems with youth participation at the moment, I think we would all really much want to hear it.  Personally, what I've heard so far is one of the things is that although there are some young people, for example, coming to IGF, there is pretty much nothing they can do about it when they get home.  Is that true, Hong Kong?

>>  That's pretty much, yes.  So we are trying to learn more here, and how appears what we have learned, we are just trying to change this step by step.  So we hope that one day more youth can participate, yes. 

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  Do you think you could do something about it locally?

>>  You mean in Hong Kong? 

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  Yes.

>>  Yes.  So we have arranged YIGF in Hong Kong, yes.  And there are about 30-something youth participating in the youth IGF Forum.  They did participate and discussed on issues about digital device, etcetera, and we are organising some community projects to have more youth volunteers, to help them to use the Internet, yes .

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  Which do you think is a bigger barrier for participation, the will, or the knowledge to do it, or there simply aren't resources?

>>  Actually, we think that, in Hong Kong, actually know many people have, can access to the Internet.  But the problem is always the attitude, and how they use it.  We think the barrier is, they don't know the correct attitude about it.  And they just don't, they actually don't, you know, IGF, there is actually no Hong Kong representative, or youth Hong Kong representative, except for us.  I think the problem is they don't know what kind of channel they can voice their opinion, the advertising, or they don't think is important.

I think it's more about how we should tell the others, how we can tell them about this kind of thing.  Yeah. 

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  Does it sound familiar to others?  Young people not knowing how they get their voice out?  Is there any improvement in this happening in your place?  What sort of projects?  Anything in Denmark?

>>  I think that is a very big problem, because there is truth in it, yes, the knowledge about these issues is firstly very difficult, because it gets very technical very easy, and for the other thing, it's I think, well, again, we have a technology and it's just so usable.  And it's so easy.  And you mostly have fun. 

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  I'm sure there are some active young people who do know the technology as well.

>>  Definitely, there are.  But the majority are not that knowledgeable about it.  And I think that is the challenge.  How do we reach them?  How do we get the message out to them?  Because the people sitting here, they are not the issue.  So, yeah .

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  Indeed.  How do you think we could activate or get them interested?  Have you run into any sort of situation where you convinced a young person to get more interested in how the Internet works and how the culture works and what should not be done?

>>  I think to put it short, if you make them sure that they get hurt, if you put them in situations where they actually get attention and they feel that they are being taken seriously, they are more likely to get engaged.  That what I have experience with our youth panel, if you just ask them their opinions and what they think and talk with them, while it's okay, but it doesn't really make them on fire.  But if you put them on a panel and you have them administer something, listening to them, they are actually on fire suddenly.

And that is what makes a difference. 

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  Go ahead.

>>  Yeah, actually I think it's not only about the technology.  It's also about the topics, because Internet Governance is just such a large topic, that young people are just, don't see, that's the fact that they don't see why they should be interested in it; whereas, if we just say, well, we will be really focusing on new media, or we will be focusing on Cybercrime, then that's I think more effective, and maybe having this idea of choosing every year a topic, one topic that everybody would work on, I think that would be really nice.

My experience is that at the EuroDIG, which is the European Dialogue on Internet Governance, the youth part focused on new media and how new media shaped our world and everything.

And having this core focus really brought us on the front stage, and we had a really good voice in that Forum.  I think that is the way forward. 

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  So we need let's say better topics but also some fora where they can express their opinions in an environment where they think it will matter.  Tim, did you have something there?

>> TIM DAVIES:  Yes, to share more a history of what happened this year with people organising on the mailing list to put in session proposals, and it has been good to get young people into a number of workshop proposals, not just on youth topics.  Although some of those have been, but I think we still have a number of challenges to the full involvement of young people in IGF and a number of missed opportunities.

One is around getting people involved in specific topics, particularly by the remote participation and eParticipation, I think there is many more opportunities for young people in hubs locally to be engaging just for the day, for an afternoon in the issue that is most interesting to them based on what they have done locally.

I think we have missed some opportunities to make sure we help find panellists to take part in sessions, so that the coalition can act as a resource to say if you are running a panel on Cybercrime or running a panel on the potential of new media to support democratization, actually amongst the networks in this room, we can think of young people, young adults, children who could speak on those panels who could bring a real insight.  We need to make the coalition a better resource for other workshop conveners to come to and find those people.

Thirdly, what's been impressed to see the development of young people's, children and young people and young adults' involvement in panels this year.  I've also been slightly concerned by some of the views I've heard from workshop conveners who are listening and then not listening, saying this is just young people reading from scripts preprepared by organisations.

I think we need to challenge some of that to say this has to be meaningful participation, and the people who come are coming bringing real experience, and shouldn't be dismissed, should be treated as equal panellists, and making sure we are continuing with that message. 

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  Max.

>>  Yeah, very much agree, Tim.  Also, as you said, it is not about showcasing youth involvement but actually practicing it, and capacity building in order to involve youth more in digital governance is really about both, about the topics, and about training to speak out in a conference, speak up in a conference like this, in EuroDIG, or smaller local regional activities.

And that is an approach that we tried with this New Media Summer School, but still on a very elite level.  We had 220 applicants from across Europe.  But they were all masters and PhD students, and we still had to train them.  We still had trainers.  It was not just about the topics, but also about the appearance and how you advocate for topics and so on.

We will gladly share this as kind of a tool kit of methods that we use and so on, that as I said, it's still on a very elite level, and it does not go down to the local levels so far.

One thing is, I was stressed by an interesting person from the Electronic Frontier Foundation on the first day, this multistakeholder approach that is always being stressed here at the IGF does not really cover all the stakeholders that reach out into the societies, and like real Internet activists are often not here, that reach out a lot more than we do; for example, the pirates just having recent tremendous successes in German regional elections, was like 15, 16 percent among young voters and 9 percent in total.

I think we need to reach out more, also the youth coalition, to real activists, that are even more critical, and reach out more than we do, and would be cool to involve them more.  As I said, these training tool kits, we will gladly share with the youth coalition. 

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  Thank you very much.  I will just add, in the pad there is now a list of issues that we could tackle in the future, or which we can use to tell others to take into consideration.  So we can actually get stuff done.  You are very free to edit and add.

>>  I think even as I agree with what the other speakers have said about capacity building, and topics, identifying topics that are interesting to the youth, but as actually, what I think is that in Africa, the youth would be more than willing to be actively involved in issues of Internet Governance, in Africa and in Kenya actually, because governance again it will also, yeah, ensure that they are able to access Internet and can be made more available, and all that.

So these things about training, also need to think about the provision of computers and other facilities that are required, because even as the Government tries to take Internet, you know, to as far-reaching places as possible, like in Kenya you've got Internet up to the very top parts of this country.  But it is not being used, because the youth are not trained, and they don't have the other equipments and facilities that they require to be able to access and utilize that Internet.

So along with training, we need to have other equipments and facilities that are required to reach out to youth.

And again, apart from just thinking about youth within the capital city, we also think, we also think about youth outside the capital city, in the rural and marginalized communities and the like, because by the end of the day, the issues that we will be discussing and using to, passing on or utilizing Internet to address issues, they are highly effective, they are socioeconomic, they are political.  They affect all youth across the board.

So we need to think about from that perspective. 

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  True.

>>  In relation to the two previous comments, in particular the European Youth Forum's ones, I'd like to say that one of our biggest concerns at the Council of Europe when embarking on youth participation in various areas, is their representativity of the young people we are going to involve, in terms of age, socioeconomic background, nationality, all sorts of reasons.

And as your question was, what do you think is one of the biggest challenge here at the IGF in terms of youth participation, I would say that we can welcome the fact that there are positive developments in terms of inviting more young people to take the floor, and not only as passive participants but also active players.

But the next issue on the agenda is how representative these young people are, because of course one person or two persons, two people cannot be always representative of a whole age group or cultural region or whatever.

So, this would be very interested also for on the side of international organisations who are trying to do that, to gather the views of young people and that how can we ensure that there is equal representation. 

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  Thank you very much.  Tim?

>> TIM DAVIES:  The thing that is a key point, we often need to distinguish that young children, young people, young adults may participate sometimes as individuals with expertise to bring, and sometimes as representatives of broader constituencies, and understanding which time is which can be sometimes tricky and can lead to confusion about the role young people play here at IGF.  And we should empower people to declare when they are doing one or the other.

On that point, we need to have a more representative group.  We need to make sure more than just the stakeholders are represented by diversity of age, gender, socioeconomic background, are all represented here.  One of our key challenges we face is resourcing that.  Many of the young people who are here will have had to wear many different hats in order to get someone from them to come and attend.

Often I'm here by doing some work for a couple different organisations, in order to afford that attendance.  I think that is the same for others.  We perhaps have a structural challenge there, that where for adults, they are often parts of organisations that will back them.  For some people the simple practicalities of participating can be prohibitive.  We need to look at working the remote participation to address some of that, or looking at how we resource young people's participation from broader groups, or both. 

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  Let's take a couple more.  Then we will go forward.  When we have the list of issues, we can start working on solutions to them.

>>  Thank you.  This is exactly the main point for us, because every time we come here as the European Youth Forum, I can speak on behalf of millions of young Europeans that we represent, but I could also speak as Peter who is interested in the topic.  I think both are valid.

And the good thing about Internet Governance and the Forum that is, establish this stakeholder approach, is in the fact that a stakeholder can be also a person, and that is a good thing.  But of course, when it comes to youth, we are risking the fact that we are not being properly represented or we could be misrepresented in this.

Therefore, I think that there is a role for the youth coalition to play in this, to structure a bit these things, because all the points that we mention beforehand in the beginning of the debate on how we reach out, who is capable of participating from where, it's always, has to be someone who needs to motivate the young people, who needs to inform the young people about these possibilities, who needs to teach them or show them sometimes you are being taught, but still you need to be the channel, you need to have the proper channels to do that.

Now, if you have the stakeholders in the coalition with the structure on how you want to achieve that, then of course everybody within the coalition takes certain responsibility on themselves, Max as an individual, me as an organisation, someone else in their own capacity.  Then you can go back, and that is the most important thing, I think, going home, bringing these things.  I can recognize that we had participants in the past who also were from the board, but didn't bring it home.  So I'm very much aware of how difficult that could be.

Or, that it wasn't seen as a priority, but we need to create sustainability of this model.  I think maybe linking it with what was said in the beginning, if the youth coalition decides there is one topic they want to focus on specifically in the next year, so that they can build up to, that doesn't mean that you don't talk about others, but that something that you identify as the most important thing for you, then you lobby and advocate with the partners who are setting up the next IGF already beforehand, to say we want to put this on the agenda, we want to make it a more visible prominent element.  And then of course everything that was done already for this IGF that Tim was mentioning, that is a good way forward in trying to create as many workshops, and also his idea of bringing in youth panellists, who can have a say.  So I think that is a very good direction that we would go to. 

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  Definitely.

>>  I don't think that the representativity of the youth is the main problem, but I rather think that promotion is a bigger problem, because I don't think that the Hong Kong youth actually is aware that there is an IGF or ICANN anywhere, though I think that the youth participation is not a problem, because youth get involved in the Internet every day and their lives is instantly related to Internet.  But they don't know we have these kinds of meetings and conferences that is related to their daily life.

I think that if we do have all sorts of campaign or more promotion telling that, telling them there are opportunities for them to voice their opinion to something that related to their lives, I think more people would really join. 

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  Indeed.  That is what I would also say.  There is a lot of I could say ignorance in IGF, seems especially IGF itself is a Forum that only a handful of people in any given country know about, and the existence is isolated.  Tim, can you give your point?  We can start summarizing what has happened so far.

>>  Question to those involved in things like the New Media Summer School and youth IGF in Asia, and Child Net -- youth IGF In the UK are not here in this session -- have you been talking to each other outside the coalition?  Is there communication between those groups already?  Or is that something we should be fostering year round?

>>  Not yet.  So fostering would be cool.    (Chuckles) .

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  We better focus on more networking and education then.

Now that we have listed at least some issues, we can really read, and maybe we can tidy it up for a later time and put it on the Web site, but now we know what we can focus on, we will think about it later, in the workshops and mailing lists, and of course, we will stay in touch with each other, right?

If we move to number 3, because there is half an hour left, summary of 2010, 2011 activities, evaluation assessment, I have to say there is not much official sort of programme that YCIG has very officially and with big money started or arranged.  But there are a lot of local things, and in general some phenomenas that we can see what has happened in a year.  Personally I've seen more youth participation here, and I've seen improvement in how young people and their Internet usage is understood.

Listening here, one of the first workshops, I hear less talks about censorship.  I hear those people who last year were let's say still separating virtual world and meet space, they were now today and yesterday and the day after, and the day before, were saying we don't need digital in front of digital citizenship or we don't need Internet before Internet bullying; it's the same thing just happening on a different platform.  This is improvement that is happening.  That is what I've seen happening in one year.  I still see Internet addiction; we can talk about that later, and check more about the myths and misunderstandings later on.

But any sort of success stories or events we would like to share, what is happening in the last year?  Tim, anything?

>> TIM DAVIES:  The main thing that has been good over the last year has been activity to the mailing list with collaboration around people discovering New Media Summer School, other events.  We can do a lot more to share there what is going on.

We have certainly the workshop on facilitating this afternoon has been very much through the support of the mailing list and other members of the coalition, that that is happening.  I certainly wouldn't have put in a proposal without knowing there is that backing there to make that happen and to find participants.

We have also put a few things up on the YCIG blog, which we have again not used as much as we could.  I think we should carry on using that as a space to collect together some of the statements, declarations from different groups.  But some of the articles that were shared there certainly garnered some comments, and I know were useful to people to have that space.

Some foundations there, but things could be built on a lot more. 

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  All right.  I've also, I know there are some local IG events that have happened so far, and of course EuroDIG and so on.  I personally was not there myself.  I'm not sure about the youth participation.  But any information on that?  Have you personally witnessed young participants in any sort of local discussions about Internet Governance?

>>  Maybe we can say that during EuroDIG, that was thanks to the fact that, I was discussing also yesterday with some people -- .

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  Please say that.

>>   -- how can you bring in, can you enable the young people that are present in the meeting are also speaking up?  That was basically the main, one of the main topics of the New Media Summer School, in building capacity and training them.  And we went from A to Z on everything that needs to be done from basic stuff of how do you make sure you raise your hand high enough, how do you make yourself visible?  Really sometimes things that you would think that are ridiculous, but they are important because they are presenting barriers to young people actually speaking up.

In the end, we were taking over the whole EuroDIG, and it was people are getting tired of this, but it is giving capacity and then showing how you can do it, and then EuroDIG served as a good example.  I'm sure there are others.  But we can only speak about that one, how we took over in comparison to previous years.  It was a very positive development. 

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  Yes, those are very important, although they are local and at that point for that event they are very important.  Sorry that you were interrupted.  Could you continue?

>>  It's okay.  There was an initiative which was organised by TaC together against Cybercrime in cooperation with the Council of Europe this year, which is the first French youth and teenagers Internet Governance Forum.  It took place in Strassburg, and mostly with young people who were French and from socially difficult areas.

Unfortunately, I cannot give you many details about this event because I did not participate personally in that event and its organisation.  But the Council of Europe has the summary of the achievements of the first French youth Internet Governance Forum.  And there is a representative of TaC here whom I'm sure could give you more information about that.

I think that that could be also an interesting partnership for future events of that kind together with organisations that are represented here. 

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  Great.  Let us know.

>>  Actually, Net Mission ambassador organised two YIGF in previous years.  This summer we organise a YIGF in Singapore.  I'm one of the organising committee members.  What I've realized is that actually in Asia, youth in Asia, those who are actively involved in YIGF or Internet Governance related issues, they join it because they need, like it is related to the university wants them to join an ECA so they find something to join.

I think personally, they are not really interested.  It's because I've heard one youth saying that if there is, it's the Government's decision and there is not much related to me, so why change it?  It's okay, why change it?

That is the main problem.  Although we have some good outstanding performance delegates from Singapore, that we have brought four delegates from Singapore to IGF Kenya this year, I've heard from them, but they are not really actively involved, or even they are doing some sharing in workshops, they just read from the note cards.

So I think although we give them trainings, but after all, their participation is not very good.  So I think it's more about for Asian youth, it is more about the attitude, yeah.

>>  I wanted to add up something on Max's appearance at the EuroDIG.  At first when we came in, we were pretty, I wouldn't say aggressive, but I would say we were there as the young people, we are the youth and that was our strong message.

But then throughout the event, we realized kind of that if we position ourselves as the young people, as well as the biggest users and the most active users on the Internet, then your argument becomes more and more powerful.  I think this is something that I really realise, that yes, young people, but as well, acknowledge our role and how we can really emphasize that.

I think the youth coalition should also think about this. 

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  That approach worked in your opinion, making, trying to make it more clear how prevalence youth participation online is.  It's important to hear the voice, or hey, our voice.  First I vote they and now I said they.  It is wrong.  Youth should be there among everyone else, not just categorized as the young people over there.

>>  Exactly. 

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  Exactly.  But nice to see improvements.

>>  We had a national IGF in Denmark.  The Media Council arranged youth panel and workshop with industry, so there were six young people.  Five were present from the industry.  And basically it was questions about privacy and security and things like that, but more put up as an open question in regards to how much privacy do you want, or what about online marketing, what do you think about that?

So it was not so much in regards to defining something or demanding something.  It was more a way to create awareness, and it was actually very interesting.  I think what we get out of that is, you actually get a perspective into where the young people actually are. 

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  Go ahead.

>>  Let me just say this is a wake-up call for me, and many of the youth in Kenya right now.  I'm from Kenya.  And I really didn't know that IGF was also involved in the youth as I've seen right now.  And I actually got to know about IGF from one of my lecturers who is a participant in this.  So I guess maybe I should ask all of you to give us information, how we can make this more our, in terms of making the youth here in Kenya and Africa get to know, get to be involved in this thing, because with all the hype in mobile development, as we have seen in Kenya, so many people don't know that this is actually happening right now.

This is a good cause. 

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  Ladies and gentlemen, this is progress.  This is actually getting things done.  Thank you very much.  Yes, we will help you.

>>  Just to follow up on what he is saying, I think this Forum need to think of how they could, you know, mobilize the youth of the country, where the IGF is going.  For example, this conference should have had a lot of youth into this Forum, Kenyon youth into this Forum, because the cost of bringing the Kenyon youth would have been less, and you know, yeah, so in the next country that the IGF will be going to  --

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  Azerbaijan.

>>  -- the Forum should take this as a challenge.  They should organise to mobilize the youth in that country, so that as you leave the country, you leave the youth Forum quite established. 

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  Good point.  That goes into strategic planning for action plan, that helping I think local, well, let's say young people and others arrange activities locally that promote youth participation in IG, and also of course getting you young also along with the IGFs.

>>  I wanted to say two things to help this conversation.  First of all, I was really surprised by how little knowledge there is about IGF in schools, meaning I went in training to school in Geneva -- .

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  Did you mean IG or IGF?  Internet governance in general or the Forum?

>>  IGF and Internet Governance in general.  I mean the school used to give us opportunities and everything like that, but we never heard of stuff like IGF.

I think getting in touch with schools will definitely help to find probably the students or the guys of a certain age which are most interested in those kinds of things, especially, for example, in Europe, many schools can support the students and pay the fees.

Similarly in Kenya, I think she is really right.  People should be promoted by the country, by the schools, by many organisations, educational organisations to go to IGF.

Another thing I wanted to say, and here is kind of difficult to say, is that IGF, how it's organised, for me, many people, many kids have difficulties to talk, because it's actually quite scary.

I mean, to be honest, being here with all these others, all so formal, I mean all the people around my age already have much more experience than me and probably they had to go through a really, they had to surpass really difficult barrier too, you know.

When I went to Sharm El Sheikh, there was a preparation course before going to speak in front of television and everything and everyone.  They notice that in the preparation course, the thing we said, which were much more important than the thing we said at the official IGF meeting, because it was mostly people of the same group age, and there was not as much pressure.

They notice that some people were really charismatic by nature and will actually speak out.  We are actually saying the things.  But then some other people were shy, who go to IGF and say nothing, even if they probably had some of the most valuable, some of the most worthy points to say. 

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  We will definitely have to work on that.

>>  I think that this raises also the issue of the direct participation, but also indirect participation of young people, because you stated lots of reasons, like being confident and everything, but the first barrier I see is linguistic barrier.  Not every child or young person can speak English, which is the main language that we use here .

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  It should not be the only one.

>>  Yeah.  I'm sure that, I'm impressed by the English some representatives have here.  I'm French and I know that many of the young French people, at the age of 14, certainly don't master English that well to be able to take the floor in that kind of arena.

On the other hand, it's not possible to have all languages spoken in such arenas.  It raises the question of indirect representation and participation. 

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  Do you have any suggestions how we could perhaps help promote people overcome those language barriers in IG?  Anything?  Or just make materials in other language than English.

>>  I think it's about creating probably platforms, and networking at various regional levels.  In the Council of Europe, we have in our 47 Member States focal points who deal with all issues relating to children and young people's rights.

We have also two European youth centres, based one in Strassburg, the other one in Budapest, and the European Youth Forum is usually working frequently in cooperation with these centres.  I think that we could multiply activities in that, using those channels, and focus a little more on Internet Governance issues, so to make sure that these groups agree on certain messages that they can convey at international events like the IGF, and that could be a model that could be followed or applied in other regions of the world.  Just an idea; I'm just brainstorming with you right now. 

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  All right, Tim.

>> TIM DAVIES:  There is an absolutely key point.  I want to link this to the last workshop I was in on eParticipation, and there was a lot of discussion there, but how we need to move towards more multilingual eParticipation, and also to come on that point about equipping people to speak up in sessions.  I think that is absolutely crucial.

I think there is two things we should be asking the IGF to write into the agreements it makes with host countries:  One, that they ask the host country to do capacity building with local young people to take part; and two, they support and encourage a preworkshop for young people at the IGF coming to meet each other, become more confident in speaking up, but also to look at some of the other ways to influence the IGF process.  So I've been watching carefully, how the outcomes of IGF are often based on these texts that we are seeing coming up on the screen, on the workshop reports, on other things.  And there are ways to participate that don't involve always speaking up in the session.

In fact, in some sessions where I've previously felt unable to speak up, I've joined remote participation, and typed a comment in.  And that's come out in the record of that session.  So I think we can also look at some of the creative ways, and then also look at how we can support translation in those contexts, so young people can be involved.

One other quick observation, also on how do we make sure the work we do here at the international IGF links to regional and local hubs.  I thought last year the way we drafted the statement to the main IGF was really strong.  We put sections of different documents that have been written by Net Mission Asia, by the youth IGF project in the UK and others into one of these private pad or ether pad documents, and tried as much as possible to build our statement here from the material that was already coming from groups of young people elsewhere.

And I think if we can build on that, that would be really strong to say it's not about a group coming here and rethinking what's already been said, but it's about those people who have the chance to be here amplifying the voices of other children, young people and young adults who have been participating perhaps in other languages, perhaps in different context across the globe .

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  We have to keep going, but if you have something quick, please.

>>  Related to the barriers of language, for Net Mission ambassador, when we choose a representative, we actually look at their English level first.  So actually honestly speaking, Avis and I, our knowledge on Internet Governance might not be the one, the one who have many knowledge about it.  They just choose the ones that we have passion on it, and English is good.

So what we do is that we will have meeting with others, Net Mission ambassador before, and they will tell us their ideas first, and we drop it down and when we come to the conference, we might have, we can look at their opinion first, and talk about it for them.  And also we actually were going on and talking to them on Amazon, so we are talking to them in Chinese first, and then if they have any opinions, they can tell us in Chinese and we can help them to voice their opinions also.

I think so, I think this is a good method, that others can also use it too. 

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  Yes.  All right.  So the sections 3 and 4 concerning summarizing what has happened, you are free to add things to it if you want.  Again, the address is piratepath.net/ycigigf11.  And also we have done planning now, but if you have some ideas what should be done, creating materials, helping people start things locally, all of this stuff, feel free to write there, and we will process it, in the mailing list and so on.

Now, the next part in the schedule was the YCIG charter of vision.  But I have to say this, we keep the records at a minimum and we don't have time to do things here.  This is preliminary discussion, how to get things more efficient.  So that will happen later in the mailing list.  Tim, you have something.

>>  TIM DAVIES:  Two things to add to that.  One, we can do some of this on the mailing list, but take the opportunity to talk to each other after the session to develop those networks.  Two, on that charter provision, I welcome input from the European Youth Forum who probably have more experience of how do we get structures right, to do inclusive.  In the past we have maybe written structured documents, and then felt uneasy with them and gone away from them.

I'd welcome the experience of those who have been involved in more structured forms of participation to challenge on that, personally having been the person over the last couple months doing activation on the mailing list.

I have a natural fear of committee structures which may come through, and I don't want that to influence the way the coalition actually works.  So please do challenge that and engage with that discussion; that probably is best on the list.  If anyone isn't a member of the list, a piece of paper has gone round, please make sure you join us on that .

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  If you meet people who weren't here in the beginning, so there is a mailing list paper there, you can put it forward, or come over and put your E-mail address there and name, and when you have time, maybe after this.

We have ten minutes until 12:30; we can start finishing then.  There are two things more to consider.  The fifth section is the scheduled statement for the IGF main session.  Last year in Vilnius, as Tim said, we collaborated using this same tool.  All in all, young people who were there present, we worked together on writing a speech.  That is very different from having one single guy in a suit preparing a speech and reading it from a paper.  There is good collaboration.  We can all write and fix, comment, edit and so on.

It happened in really short time as well.  Of course, we would also like to see here some sort of message from youth perspective to be given in the final session.  We can start thinking about what sort of things we would like to emphasize, what should we say about youth and the issues we think are really important, and start writing.  In the end of the document, there is a place to write, and it is a statement for main session in the title now.  That will be happening freely after this.  We don't have time to do it now here.

>> TIM DAVIES:  Also useful maybe if you are willing to coordinate that, to set a time when people can meet together again, perhaps tomorrow, coffee break outside this room, so that people can view that. 

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  Yes, of course, we can set a time after we have, after the session, let's, don't leave in a hurry.  Do some networking.  We will of course communicate about those times.  So let's see on Twitter and on the Web site, and put the time on the pad as well.  Tomorrow might be a good time to meet after we have some thinking done.  I know it takes a lot of time to process these sessions, and think about what could be done better.

For the last thing for this session, that really helps us do a better job at the workshops and in general in youth participation, is please do tell us others what we should participate in.  There are several workshops here about, just about youth, and where youth are participating.

We want to know about them all in case we have missed any, and of course what is happening locally.  For some people it was a very hard thing to travel to Kenya.  For some people it was a very hard thing to travel to Vilnius last year.  For some people it will be very very difficult to travel to Azerbaijan perhaps.  But there might be some sort of Internet Governance related events nearby that would be interested, or useful to attend to.

So the 7th section, please do tell what we should do, what should we visit, anything you want to promote, where do you want visitors.  I can already add that today, there is the challenging myths about young people and the Internet workshop.  I will let you know.  That is today at 14:30.  Am I correct, Tim?

>>  14:30, room 11.  2:30 after lunch .

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  Yes, 14:30, room 11.  I don't remember what the actual composition of that was.  But I suppose it will be very very educating, especially for, if we make this distinction for adults and young people, I think it is very beneficial to hear, let's say some contradictions and correct misconceptions, so we don't work on false premises.  I believe it may be shocking to some people to realise, maybe those other people actually behave differently on the Internet.  Not everyone does the same as I do.  I'm very much expecting to see that experience myself.  There is the youth factor accounting in IG and is IG affecting the youth today as well at 16:30 in conference room 9.

As you can guess, it's about the same topic, as we are working on here.

Anything to add?  Locally or internationally?  I'm sure you have some ideas.  Anything in the next year?  Anything you think we should visit, anything that we should participate in?

>>  When you were talking about what will be some of the most important subjects for maybe the youth group, IGF youth or whatever you call it .

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  Yes.

>>  I think Cybercrime is becoming really important nowadays.  I say that because I see that there is a great development on like Internet and credit cards, and talking about all banking and everything, and like there are a lot of kids actually, or people my age which are still maybe too young for this, they actually go to put their credit card or their parents' credit cards with codes and everything.  And at the end of the day, you know, they actually are risking a lot of money, which is maybe not only theirs.  It is also their parents'. 

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  And is there is some event that would relate to this, that we can check out?

>>  Sorry .

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  Is there an event we can check out relating to this, or just in general?

>>  If I have to talk practically, I don't know if you guys heard, there was a problem with PS3 Internet .

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  Yes, I know, but are there some sort of -- you can promote where we can get information?

>> TIM DAVIES:  This was a suggestion for a topic we should focus on.  It's a very strong suggestion.  I guess it might be useful for others if there are any other things people think would be a key focus for this group to take forward, it might be worth raising, focus on these now, even though I'm pushing slightly off the agenda.  Cybercrime is one.

The other one I'm interested in seeing discussions of is are we having good provision of content and platforms for young people to exercise their creativity online?  Because I see where we are having a narrowing down into a few social networking spaces rather than more autonomous spaces, where young people can engage in creativity in more free ways than necessarily the technology supports right now. 

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  All right.

>>  Two events to share.  There is one of the biggest European blogger conferences, called Republica, or Republicer, it's being hosted in Berlin, usually in May.  Next time will be May, 2012, with more than 2,000 participants from across Europe and the world.  And to reach out more to activists and more to the academia, that will be a very nice and very good possibility for us.

I would happily share a bit of info about the youth coalition and try to find more people.  But maybe it's an interesting date for you as well.

Second, the EuroDIG, which we have mentioned already a couple of times, will take place in Stockholm in June I think, beginning of June.  But we will of course let you know the dates.

And we are trying to make our summer school bigger, with like 40, 45 people next year, and hoping that we can involve some of you as well, even maybe going in some way global, and not limiting it to the European borders.  

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  Let's remember EuroDIG.  I can personally say we are hosting an after party for the IGF in Finland next month.  What I'm writing up is Finnish Internet Forum, that is in October, that is next month, 18th and 19th, in Helsinki.  And there is one Finnish date.  Anything else we can add?  Anything happening in Denmark or Italy?  Kenya?  Hong Kong?

>>  Yeah, I want to mention that the opportunity that the ICANN is giving, that every year they provide fellowships for young people to get involved with the ICANN, and it's very easy to apply.  You can apply four times a year.  And then you participate in at least three ICANN meetings, and it's really nice way to get to know a little bit more this world. 

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  Thank you very much.  I didn't know that.  That is very good thing to know.

I know in Sweden, there is also not that much Internet Governance, but at least culture, there is FS Cons that could be of interest to some people.  That would be, I'll put the URL there.  This is a free society conference in Nordic summits, that should be very interesting for people who are let's say interested in, well, let's say how the technology or Internet works, or anything on software and hardware, and pretty much everything.

That sort of conference is of course let's say more high up than is IGF, but there are a lot, a lot of these sort of Internet conferences, where activists and just people in general interested in cyber culture come together.

>>  I happen to remember another really nice thing is the ITU, which is hosting in Geneva the talk on world, and they have as well a youth Forum where they take people from all over the world, and to participate a little bit more in the discussion on, generally on the information society, and that is also really good opportunity if anybody wants to get involved. 

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  Yes.  Let's hope somebody writes it down there.  So we can check it.

Anything else?  If there is nothing else, then I hope we are very well prepared for the, well, today's workshops and also to collaborate, and if someone still didn't put their E-mail address to join the mailing list, please do so.  Where is the paper at the moment?  Somewhere?  Okay.  Is there anything with the remote participants?  Tim?  You would like to mention anything?

>>  I've not had any comments from the remote participants.  But if there are any listening who would like to add comments quickly, please do in the next minute or so.  Thank you. 

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  Yes, thank you.  For my part, this Dynamic Coalition is over here.  I think we have now done something very few panels and events and sessions have managed to do, and that is actually list issues that we can tackle.

If there is anything you would like to add now, feel free to do so, and then we will finish.  All right.  Work continues on the pad, where we wrote the statement, on the mailing list.  Do follow the Web site.  And if you are interested in writing and blogging about those stuff, please tell Tim.  He will give you account details and you can help then.

>> TIM DAVIES:  I have one bit of remote participation from Rafik, who's tweeted to say thank you for chairing and taking care of the meeting.  And I think also we would send our thanks to Rafik for making sure this session was on the agenda today, without which we would have been huddling in the corridor rather than having such a grand room in which to have this conversation. 

>> JOONAS MAKINEN:  All right.  Thank you very much.

   (Applause.)

   (Session ends at 12:30)

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